Wagner & Beethoven

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A question, then for you, Peter. What degree of influence did Beethoven have on Weber? Much of Weber's orchestral music reminds me a lot of Beethoven's orchestral work. I am certain that Beethoven was NOT influenced by Weber, but I wonder about Weber. If there was some degree of influence then we have a link to Wagner. (But I do agree that Wagner's music is very remote from Beethoven's.)

Question for all involved in this discussion: Is Wagner's music any more remote from Beethoven's that Schoenberg's is from Bach's? Or than Stravinsy's is from Bach's?

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I’ve noticed that people who believe that only a few artists made really great art, and are close-minded to other movements and eras, are often very uptight and shrill about it. They insult and disparage others at the drop of a hat, insist they and only they know what art is, that other people willfully try to promote inferior art, and are very absolutist and rigid about having everything their way. They promote absolute ranking systems, as if art were a sports tournament, and like to use all-or-nothing thread names, such as "Handel vs. Bach".

Chaszz, it appears you have just described someone whose favorite composer was Wagner: Adolf Hitler!

Seriously, what you say is very true. And since professionals at one time or another are obligated to play lots of different music, most of them in time develop a broad appreciation of the various musics out there. Some privately may find Beethoven heavenly and Wagner hellish (or vice versa), but they have to play both at one time or another, and give them both all their art.

And a good number of them like to sit in on jazz jams or rock bands. There's a story of a fiddler who sat in with a country music band for an evening, and wowed them with his fine playing. After a bit one of the regulars asked if the fiddler played with any other groups. "Oh yeah," he replied, "I also play with the Los Angeles Philharmonic."

When I played with the Boulder (Colo.) Philharmonic, we performed with many fine soloists. The greatest of them, such as Peter Serkin, the Romeros and the Canadian Brass, were utterly modest and down to earth. (I still remember Mr. Serkin's wondrous artistry in Beethoven's Fourth Piano Concerto.) The Canadian Brass played a double quintet with members of the Boulder Phil. brass section, and I, listening, couldn't distinguish the world-famous musicians from the locals, the blend was so perfect. And they were just as much fun at the post-concert party as on stage. That's the sort of people they are. Without exception the guest artists were polite, respectful, and easy to work with.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
A question, then for you, Peter. What degree of influence did Beethoven have on Weber? Much of Weber's orchestral music reminds me a lot of Beethoven's orchestral work. I am certain that Beethoven was NOT influenced by Weber, but I wonder about Weber. If there was some degree of influence then we have a link to Wagner. (But I do agree that Wagner's music is very remote from Beethoven's.)

I've heard a fair amount of Weber's music, and have played Der Freischuetz' overture and one or two other things. Der Freischuetz is an acknowledged masterpiece, but probably owes much more to Clementi and Mozart than to Beethoven. Overall, his craftsmanship is fine, but he seems to lack Beethoven's intensity, power, and heart: surface beauty rather than inner strength. (Please, this is just my opinion. I don't want to start another flame-throwing session!)

One thing I have noticed about Freischuetz and Fidelio: Weber's Agathe is a rather frail and languishing creature who does little but wait for the Freeshooter to sweep her off her feet, but Beethoven's Leonore is as much a warrior as her husband Florestan. This suggests to me that Beethoven was more egalitarian in his beliefs about women (although perhaps not his treatment of them).

Carl Maria von Weber detested Beethoven and loathed his symphonies. It was he who said after B7's premiere: "Beethoven is now ripe for the madhouse." Professional jealousy, perhaps?

[Amalie]

Carl von Weber was at first opposed to much of Beethoven's music,
He later became a great admirer.
Beethoven in turn was apparently very impressed by Der Freischutz.
Weber directed Beethoven's 'Fidelio' in Prague in 1814, and in Dresden in 1823, and paid him a visit of October that year.[ ]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Question for all involved in this discussion: Is Wagner's music any more remote from Beethoven's that Schoenberg's is from Bach's? Or than Stravinsy's is from Bach's?

Simply No - Beethoven and Wagner were working with the same tools - western tonality. Even Bach and Mahler were using similar ingredients (in vastly different ways) and the trip is like London to New York. However with Bach and Schoenberg it is more like Earth to Mars as all the rules of the previous centuries were torn up.

------------------
'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited August 19, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:


Carl von Weber was at first opposed to much of Beethoven's music,

I have always wondered what sparked Webers sudden conversion from being an arch critic to being a big fan of Beethoven's music!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Peter:
Simply No - Beethoven and Wagner were working with the same tools - western tonality. Even Bach and Mahler were using similar ingredients (in vastly different ways) and the trip is like London to New York. However with Bach and Schoenberg it is more like Earth to Mars as all the rules of the previous centuries were torn up.

(1) What I was trying to get at in comparing Schoenberg to Bach, and Stravinsky to Bach, is the return to a small scale of forces after the hugeness of the late Romantic orchestra. At least I've read that Bach inspired the early moderns to find a way forward out of the huge scale by showing that smaller groups could make highly significant music, and that the expanded symphony orchestra was not necessary, period. And relatedly, that this was sort of a return to "classicism" for which Bach also provided inspiration (I put quotes around "classicism", because I mean the general classicism of form and order, not the specific Classical era of the late 18th c., although the smaller forces of Haydn and Mozart could have played a role here too).

Now if this is accurate, it's an example of an influence across generations that is not stylistic or harmonic but more of a conceptual or philosophic one. As Schoenberg in exploring the twelve tones may be likened to Bach systmatically exploring the twenty-four keys, each trying to open a new era, and I believe that Schoenberg professed to revere Bach, so...A spiritual affinity rather than an outright technical one, except in a very general sense, but a very important one, perhaps, no?...And equally important, for an artist faced with the existential uncertainty of what to do NOW, plus the hostility of the public, I think a spiritual support figure from the past may be crucial, no? We are sort of accustomed to thinking that significant works and movements just happen, but they have to be created by people, and for one in this process the anxiety that one may be going down the wrong path, wasting one's time, is present and may be helped by a figure from the past. (This I know from my own painting, though I'm not implying that anything I do may hold even an unlit candle to anybody we discuss here.)

(2), In the overture to Der Freischutz, what I meant to compare its horn passage with was the second theme in the third movement of Beethoven's 8th Symphony, which starts with horns, moves to include winds and then strings. I got this passage mixed up with the Pastoral Symphony simply because it's so pastoral. Play these two things (the Beethoven 8th horn passage and the Weber horn passage) one after the other, even if in your mind only, and tell me there is no connection or influence! And that Weber would have written this horn passage this way purely on the inspiration of Mozart, Haydn, French opera, or what have you, without Beethoven!



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 19, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Question for all involved in this discussion: Is Wagner's music any more remote from Beethoven's that Schoenberg's is from Bach's? Or than Stravinsy's is from Bach's?

I would wager that Bach and Schoenberg are more closely related than Beethoven and Wagner. On one point alone, Bach and Schoenberg worked within a strict regime of composition and basically set standards for each style. In this respect their music is very mathematical and I think has a lot more in common than what one might expect upon a listening.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
I've heard a fair amount of Weber's music, and have played Der Freischuetz' overture and one or two other things. Der Freischuetz is an acknowledged masterpiece, but probably owes much more to Clementi and Mozart than to Beethoven. Overall, his craftsmanship is fine, but he seems to lack Beethoven's intensity, power, and heart: surface beauty rather than inner strength. (Please, this is just my opinion. I don't want to start another flame-throwing session!)

No flame from me!! I appreciate very much what you have said here. I'm trying to piece together in my own mind what actually happened in the music world during this time period--who influenced who, etc. I agree whole-heartedly with what you say. While there is much in the orchestration and some of the chodal progressions in Weber's symphonic output that reminds me of Beethoven's symphonic output, as you say, he lacks the intensity and after listening to Beethoven he disappoints me greatly. Without thinking of Beethoven I can appreciate his music for its own sake.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have always wondered what sparked Webers sudden conversion from being an arch critic to being a big fan of Beethoven's music!

Perhaps, like Schubert, who could not understand the later works of Beethoven, Weber had difficulties with the expanded forms and increased intensity of the later compositions. As one hears things repeatedly that which is strange becomes normal and easier to digest. Maybe a light turned on in his head while listening to something one day.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
(1) What I was trying to get at in comparing Schoenberg to Bach, and Stravinsky to Bach, is the return to a small scale of forces after the hugeness of the late Romantic orchestra. At least I've read that Bach inspired the early moderns to find a way forward out of the huge scale by showing that smaller groups could make highly significant music, and that the expanded symphony orchestra was not necessary, period. And relatedly, that this was sort of a return to "classicism" for which Bach also provided inspiration (I put quotes around "classicism", because I mean the general classicism of form and order, not the specific Classical era of the late 18th c., although the smaller forces of Haydn and Mozart could have played a role here too).

Now if this is accurate, it's an example of an influence across generations that is not stylistic or harmonic but more of a conceptual or philosophic one. As Schoenberg in exploring the twelve tones may be likened to Bach systmatically exploring the twenty-four keys, each trying to open a new era, and I believe that Schoenberg professed to revere Bach, so...A spiritual affinity rather than an outright technical one, except in a very general sense, but a very important one, perhaps, no?...And equally important, for an artist faced with the existential uncertainty of what to do NOW, plus the hostility of the public, I think a spiritual support figure from the past may be crucial, no? We are sort of accustomed to thinking that significant works and movements just happen, but they have to be created by people, and for one in this process the anxiety that one may be going down the wrong path, wasting one's time, is present and may be helped by a figure from the past. (This I know from my own painting, though I'm not implying that anything I do may hold even an unlit candle to anybody we discuss here.)

(2), In the overture to Der Freischutz, what I meant to compare its horn passage with was the second theme in the third movement of Beethoven's 8th Symphony, which starts with horns, moves to include winds and then strings. I got this passage mixed up with the Pastoral Symphony simply because it's so pastoral. Play these two things (the Beethoven 8th horn passage and the Weber horn passage) one after the other, even if in your mind only, and tell me there is no connection or influence! And that Weber would have written this horn passage this way purely on the inspiration of Mozart, Haydn, French opera, or what have you, without Beethoven!

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 19, 2003).]

I think the return to smaller forces was an inevitable reaction to the huge proportions of Mahler and Richard Strauss, rather than a direct Bach inspiration. One wonders where the spiritual affinity between the immortal God of harmony and the God of atonality lies! Bach in publishing the well tempered clavier in 1722 opened the doors to western music for the next 200 years - Schoenberg in contrast went down a dead end.

This who influenced who game is endless - without French opera and works such as Cherubini's 'Les Deux Journees' or 'Faniska', Fidelio would be quite different.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

Perhaps, like Schubert, who could not understand the later works of Beethoven, Weber had difficulties with the expanded forms and increased intensity of the later compositions. As one hears things repeatedly that which is strange becomes normal and easier to digest. Maybe a light turned on in his head while listening to something one day.

But it was during the time of B's late period that Weber had a more sympathetic change of heart. As has been said, he thought the 7th Symphony was the work of a madman. If he only liked the late works, or just the earlier works then either way he still lacks judgement. And beyond this he lacked judgement in any case for being so critical in the first place.

He became a good friend of Beethoven but I suspect B was unaware of the extent of W's critisism, some of which I think was in the form of anonymous articles for music papers.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

"
"...Music occupied a privileged space in German culture, and it is hardly coincidental that, at those very same moments of contemporary crisis, German artists and intellectuals embraced another model: Ludwig van Beethoven, who was idealized as a Promethean figure who could restore fire to the German soul. This focus on Beethoven was as true for the German youth movement of the 1830’s as it was for Richard Wagner with his utopian designs for a new type of music theater in the second half of the century. For fin-de-siècle Vienna, Beethoven’s image was a literal centerpiece in the form of Max Klinger’s Beethoven statue which, at a 1902 exhibition at the anti-establishment Secession, was surrounded by Gustav Klimt’s frieze depicting moments from the finale of the great Ninth Symphony."
- American Symphony Orchestra guide

Chaszz


"Give it up already, Chaszz - you cannot get