Wagner & Beethoven

[Steppenwolf]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Even in the rather limited area of German mythological operas, I would take Die Zauberflote over Tannhauser any day.

So would I. Die Zauberflote is one of the greatest operas - or pieces of music - ever. And I would not compare it to Tannhauser. But I WOULD compare it to Parsifal. You take Mozart's final opera - the pinacle of his achievement, and compare it with a work written by a composer who was still in the process of developing his own individual style. The comparison might be reversed if I compared Parsifal to Idomeneo (by the way, I am not criticising Mozart - far from it, he is my other favourite composer, whom I revere on an equal level to Wagner).

What is particularly annoying about all this anti-Wagnerism is not that some people don't share the enthusiasm of Chassz and I. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion, and if you don't get as much out of Wagner as Beethoven or Handel or whoever, or if his style doesn't please you, then you are entitled to that opinion. But it doesn't stop with a mere difference of opinion. It is the rude, smug, self-righteous scorn that is heaped on Wagnerians that is particularly annoying, and insulting. It is a display of bad manners that would not, strangely enough, be displayed to admirers of any other artist I can think of. And this forum seems to be full of it.
I think if I came along and declared myself an admirer of Eminem or Puff Daddy there would be less condescending sneers than are reserved for one daring to suggest there could be any artistic worth in a Wagner opera.



[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited August 12, 2003).]

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
So would I. Die Zauberflote is one of the greatest operas - or pieces of music - ever. And I would not compare it to Tannhauser. But I WOULD compare it to Parsifal. You take Mozart's final opera - the pinacle of his achievement, and compare it with a work written by a composer who was still in the process of developing his own individual style. The comparison might be reversed if I compared Parsifal to Idomeneo (by the way, I am not criticising Mozart - far from it, he is my other favourite composer, whom I revere on an equal level to Wagner).

What is particularly annoying about all this anti-Wagnerism is not that some people don't share the enthusiasm of Chassz and I. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion, and if you don't get as much out of Wagner as Beethoven or Handel or whoever, or if his style doesn't please you, then you are entitled to that opinion. But it doesn't stop with a mere difference of opinion. It is the rude, smug, self-righteous scorn that is heaped on Wagnerians that is particularly annoying, and insulting. It is a display of bad manners that would not, strangely enough, be displayed to admirers of any other artist I can think of. And this forum seems to be full of it.
I think if I came along and declared myself an admirer of Eminem or Puff Daddy there would be less condescending sneers than are reserved for one daring to suggest there could be any artistic worth in a Wagner opera.

[This message has been edited by Steppenwolf (edited August 12, 2003).]

Mr. Steppenwolf,
I bow to your far greater knowledge of Wagner. Parsifal it is, then. I would still prefer The Magic Flute. It is certainly not my intent to annoy you or Mr. Chaszz, but I find it difficult to deal with a steady stream of Wagner-ism in Beethoven's own site. IMHO, there is little to compare between the two. One is the culmination of the Classical Style, the other totally not. Perhaps a Wagner board would be a better Forum for a discussion of Wagner, while the Beethoven Forum could be that? There, I put that quite nicely, did I not? I simply fail to see the relevance in this Forum. There is no need to be overly defensive. I think the astute Mr. Corkin is simply asserting his prerogatives, as am I.


------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PS - Who are those people?

[This message has been edited by Grillparzer (edited August 12, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Rod,
I will indeed check out your Handel site. I may just add that in ANY context, Mozart is more relevant than Wagner.

Well, even Mozart has not survived my critical ear unscathed at this forum, but I'll leave this matter for another day!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, even Mozart has not survived my critical ear unscathed at this forum, but I'll leave this matter for another day!

Mr. Rod,
Yes, I noted that phenomenon, however, I refuse to hold that against you, as so many seem to do. If you will be equally generous and not hold it against me that I DO like Mozart, we can certainly be in agreement on most things. I have found that having my own opinion (however radical) is acceptable, but it doesn't do to become a missionary with it.


------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
It is the rude, smug, self-righteous scorn that is heaped on Wagnerians that is particularly annoying, and insulting. It is a display of bad manners that would not, strangely enough, be displayed to admirers of any other artist I can think of. And this forum seems to be full of it.

Well as a classical music fan I have experienced plenty of what you say regardless of the composer! I understand your point but Grillparzer also makes the sensible point that this is a Beethoven forum and I think we as the administrators are really very tolerant in allowing discussions on many different subjects not all directly relevant to Beethoven. Just out of curiosity I wonder what the reaction to Beethoven, Handel or Mozart is on a Wagner forum or to those who dare to suggest Fidelio is greater than Parsifal!!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Grillparzer:

The forum description specifies topics on Beethoven in particular and classical music in general. Certainly valid under these guidelines are composers who influenced Beethoven and others he may have influenced in turn. A continuing topic off and on has been whether Beethoven was classical or romantic. He was the first and likely the greatest of nineteenth century composers and had a profound influence on that whole era which gave birth to ours and which is appropriate to discuss. That he influenced the Romantic composers there is no doubt, at least according to their own almost universal testimony. Whether they cheapened or nobly continued his art is also a topic that may be discussed and disagreed on civilly, and perhaps give rise to discovery and learning. All this is grist for the mill here and in the year I’ve been here, there’ve been some lively discussions and disputes on these matters and no one has been asked to leave until you arrived. Perhaps you’d prefer a site where strictly only Beethoven, Haydn and Mozart were discussed. If so, why don’t you seek one out or found one. After being here barely two weeks, you seem to be taking onto yourself an inordinate role in defining the site and suggesting that people leave – people who’ve been contributing here a lot longer than you have.

The current thread was started by Lysander, who is one of Beethoven’s greatest admirers on this forum, and yet that doesn’t prevent her from having an open mind to other developments. I replied to Lysander with information about Wagner’s relationship to Beethoven, which she asked for. I made no exclusionary judgments about Wagner being the only composer worth listening to or anything of that nature. Rod came along and not only denied a relationship of W. to B. but did his best to run Wagner down completely, and it is not surprising that I felt called on to reply to that as best I could. I didn’t open the thread nor did I expect the subject of the thread to be vilified. I’ve learned quite a bit about Beethoven here and have seen no reason, under the forum guideline quoted at the top, not to share some things with people who may be interested, on Wagner and earlier last year, on Bach. And much of the concentration in the forum on Wagner, which you protest, and in 2002 on Bach, has been due to Rod’s challengingly repeatedly flinging the glove upon the floor. It’s hard not to answer and prolong a thread when one’s stirring musical experiences are being dragged thru the mud of immature opprobrium. No one is obliged to read any particular thread and if they see fit to do so and demean the subject they may expect to be replied to rather than not. If they would rather not be replied to pointedly, perhaps they should refrain from slinging smug insults and generalizations at the people who are exchanging information on topics of mutual interest, which in their way are related to Beethoven. There are plenty of threads here which do not mention Wagner or romanticism if these people need places to go to read purely about Beethoven. Why are you writing about Wagner if you disdain his music? Why not go and start or contribute to a thread purely on Beethoven rather than feel compelled to put down Wagner in a thread started by other people out of mutual interest?

I’ve noticed that people who believe that only a few artists made really great art, and are close-minded to other movements and eras, are often very uptight and shrill about it. They insult and disparage others at the drop of a hat, insist they and only they know what art is, that other people willfully try to promote inferior art, and are very absolutist and rigid about having everything their way. They promote absolute ranking systems, as if art were a sports tournament, and like to use all-or-nothing thread names, such as "Handel vs. Bach". Peter, who founded this site, is not like that, preferring Beethoven and I think Haydn but able to enjoy others including Wagner. Those who are able to deeply experience both the classic and the romantic polarities in art and the in-between things also, are perhaps better adjusted as people. And I think this obsessively self-righteous approach is also a hallmark of a certain kind of amateur. I can’t think offhand of any well-known conductors, musicians, soloists, singers, critics, musicologists, music historians, what have you, who exalt one era, or one or two composers, and forthrightly demean the others, as certain posters here do. They all have their favorites but they are not exclusionary in denying worth to others as these posters seem compelled to do. Even Rod’s favorite authentic perfromance conductors are steadily expanding their repertories into the Romantic era and even beyond. I don’t think a professional could really be a professional without being able to widen their comprehension and experience much of what is great in music, beyond what is strictly limited to their own native personal taste and preference. I think it perhaps takes an amateur to do that.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 13, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
and earlier last year, on Bach. And much of the concentration in the forum on Wagner, which you protest, and in 2002 on Bach, has been due to Rod’s challengingly repeatedly flinging the glove upon the floor.

Yes what fun that was, I dug out the chain using the search:
http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000653.html

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Grillparzer]

Mr. Chaszz,
But what you are saying, in essence, is that it is OK for you to disagree with my point of view, but impertinent of me to disagree with yours. Why should this be so? Even though I have read the entire thread, I have seen no evidence presented that Wagner was influenced by Beethoven, merely that he acknowledged B to be a great master. And other than Brahms, who even attempted to emulate B? No one, they all admired him surely, but I see no one who came along and carried the torch after his death. Simply because you do not know me is no reason for you to think that I am either not knowledgable, have no taste, or am rude in some way. I have been nothing but polite to you and everyone else (well, at least in posts that were not deleted). Neither did I ask you to leave, as you have done to me. From my reading of several threads which have been highlighted by strident debates between you and Mr. Rod, I suspect that you have taken an "anti-Franz" stance simply because I have agreed with him on some things that he has said. Is this not so?


------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
Yes what fun that was, I dug out the chain using the search:

Lord it's 7 pages long!

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Goodness this is getting like the Wagner-Brahms factions in the 19th century. Compared to that lot though we've been quite tame - hopefully we'll be able not to let things get out of hand otherwise the dreaded padlock will be forced to appear. For my part I don't see why Wagner is singled out in this context anyway as Beethoven surely had just as much or as little influence on other composers who came after him. With the generation that followed Beethoven, his influence was actually a negative one in that his overwhelming legacy undermined confidence. I think it was Charles Rosen who put it that the history of music in the first quarter of the 19th century is best understood if Beethoven is ignored!
As to Wagner, the 9th symphony represented the supremacy of vocal music and set him on his operatic adventures, but surely the major musical influence there is Weber?

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'Man know thyself'

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Peter:
Goodness this is getting like the Wagner-Brahms factions in the 19th century. Compared to that lot though we've been quite tame - hopefully we'll be able not to let things get out of hand otherwise the dreaded padlock will be forced to appear. For my part I don't see why Wagner is singled out in this context anyway as Beethoven surely had just as much or as little influence on other composers who came after him. With the generation that followed Beethoven, his influence was actually a negative one in that his overwhelming legacy undermined confidence. I think it was Charles Rosen who put it that the history of music in the first quarter of the 19th century is best understood if Beethoven is ignored!
As to Wagner, the 9th symphony represented the supremacy of vocal music and set him on his operatic adventures, but surely the major musical influence there is Weber?

Mr. Peter,
As so often, you have hit the nail on the head. Please forgive any excess zeal on my part, I am not so much anti-Wagnerian as perhaps single-minded. This was just such a long thread with scarcely a mention of B except to condemn Mr. Corkin for idolatry. I did not know that Rosen addressed that particular issue, but my own observations tended in that direction, as I pointed out to Mr. Chaszz. I will of course be most circumspect in defending my opinions, as I do not wish to provoke you into being "The Eraser".


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Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Amalie]

Of course the whole purpose for posting on this board is to widen and deepen our appreciation of Beethoven's art and music and also exploring links between other great composers.
It is therefore of fundimental importance, I would have thought, for us to be open minded and receptive to all kinds of musical pathways that lead from Beethoven into the later symphonic and even indeed Operatic tradition. Wagner is a case in point.
Wagner and Beethoven are surely the two titanic geniuses of western music.
One does not need to be a 'lover' of Wagner's music surely to recognize that the 'Ring' is the product of a music and dramatic genius also. Does anyone doubt this?
Wagner literally adored Beethoven's music and wrote perceptively on it.
All learning is heuristic, that is to say it leads to discover and then understand fresh avenues. We are all engaged in this process on this site here, and we are not going to get the full benefit of one anothers insight if people choose arbitrarily to limit the scope of our enquiries.

************

"Truth exists for the wise; beauty for the susceptible heart. They belong together - are complementary"

~ Beethoven ~


Lysander*

[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited August 13, 2003).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Chaszz,
But what you are saying, in essence, is that it is OK for you to disagree with my point of view, but impertinent of me to disagree with yours. Why should this be so? Even though I have read the entire thread, I have seen no evidence presented that Wagner was influenced by Beethoven, merely that he acknowledged B to be a great master. And other than Brahms, who even attempted to emulate B? No one, they all admired him surely, but I see no one who came along and carried the torch after his death. Simply because you do not know me is no reason for you to think that I am either not knowledgable, have no taste, or am rude in some way. I have been nothing but polite to you and everyone else (well, at least in posts that were not deleted). Neither did I ask you to leave, as you have done to me. From my reading of several threads which have been highlighted by strident debates between you and Mr. Rod, I suspect that you have taken an "anti-Franz" stance simply because I have agreed with him on some things that he has said. Is this not so?

Grillparzer: "But what you are saying, in essence, is that it is OK for you to disagree with my point of view, but impertinent of me to disagree with yours. Why should this be so?"

I object not that you disagree with my point of view, of course not, but to the snide and self-important tone and manner you assume when doing so. You attempt to make a rule for the website:

"...It is most unfortunate that we cannot know what B's thought of Wagner was, so this thread has no possibility of proceeding. I am now thinking that Rod is correct, as seems to be usual, and that Wagner discussions are perhaps out of place on this little website...".

I've dealt with this assertion in my prior post, and won't repeat that defense here. However the tone in which the assertion is couched, and the attempt to make a rule for the forum, seems to me condescending and patronizing, and called forth the tone of my reaction.

Grillparzer: "Even though I have read the entire thread, I have seen no evidence presented that Wagner was influenced by Beethoven, merely that he acknowledged B to be a great master."

I don't have the time to go thru the whole thread again, which I've done once already this morning. The most important influence that Beethoven had upon Wagner was in W's declaring that the Ninth had brought the development of the symphony to its peak, and there could be no more symphonies, just combined orchestral/choral works. He thereafter devoted himself almost solely to opera. Whether one agrees with this declaration or not, and whether one likes or dislikes Wagner's works, the influence is tangible here. In the details of the posts on the thread, this major example of influence may have been overlooked or not stated, because it is so seemingly apparent and widely known. If so, this was an oversight for which I, as one of the frequent posters to this thread, apologize. However, even without this, the influence in a wider spiritual and philosphic sense, not in a stylistic sense, is abundant, in Wagner's own words and in the feelings in his works... for those able to experience them. There is a tremendous life-affirming optimistic heroism there, achieved symphonically by the whole orchestra, which is not heard that way in music before Beethoven, and not with the same power after Wagner. Nor do Brahms' works sound stylistically or structurally like Bach's, but the wider influence is real and present and attested to by Brahms. Beethoven's works do not sound like Handel's but we may reasonably infer an influence, even if only a kinship and feeling of support, from his own testimony. Since the history of classical music as we listen, know and share it, is brief, barely three centuries, (leaving out pre-Baroque music which most of us are not too familiar with) it's difficult to give other instances of deeper spiritual, as opposed to mostly stylistic or structural, influence across generations. But I could do this with the visual arts if you would like me to, because of their longer readily accessible history.

Beyond this, reading between the lines of what you say, I sense your real objection to any notion of influence is that you dislike Wagner's music, and therefore feel since the influence is wasted, in your mind, that it is not there. But that is a different matter.

Grillparzer: "Simply because you do not know me is no reason for you to think that I am either not knowledgable, have no taste, or am rude in some way. I have been nothing but polite to you and everyone else (well, at least in posts that were not deleted)."

I have given my thoughts on absolutists in my previous reply. I will simply add here, that I do think such people, who disdain and belittle the testimony of myriads of listeners (including professionals) who can evidently experience something they themselves cannot, ARE lacking in knowledge... the knowledge that human experience is in some ways larger than their own understandings can fully encompass. I think this knowledge is a basic prerequisite for humane and intelligent civilization as I understand it.

Grillparzer: "Neither did I ask you to leave, as you have done to me."

Quotes from your postings:

"...this thread has no possibility of proceeding. I am now thinking that Rod is correct, as seems to be usual, and that Wagner discussions are perhaps out of place on this little website....Perhaps a Wagner board would be a better Forum for a discussion of Wagner, while the Beethoven Forum could be that? There, I put that quite nicely, did I not? I simply fail to see the relevance in this Forum. There is no need to be overly defensive. I think the astute Mr. Corkin is simply asserting his prerogatives, as am I.
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Adieu,
Franz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PS - Who are those people?"

I've dealt with the relevance of this thread to the Beethoven site (under the site posting guidelines), and how it came to focus more on Wagner's perceived deficiencies or strengths than on its initial topic, in my prior reply. I'm now referring rather to the wording in the quotes here. The phrase 'asserting his prerogatives, as am I' taken together with 'P.S. Who are these people?' suggest strongly that the site would be better off without certain posters, who might make things better all around by leaving. It also suggests that if Rod and Grillparzer form a faction, and snidely insult the others, treating them as an unwashed out-group, they WILL leave. 'P.S. Who are these people?' implies that WE have OUR group, and the others are outsiders. It is what caused me to dig into our profiles and find that I'd been here a year while you've just arrived. Firther, it is to my ears an impolite jibe which pulls the mask off your protestations of politeness. Taken together, all the wording is a veiled suggestion that Wagner lovers pack up their baggage and leave, and leave the site to those who feel that Beethoven is the sole topic to discuss, and that his influence on the Romantics is unworthy of discussion here. Though you try to veil your meanings, in the posts that have survived Peter's scissors anyway, they are quite plain. I simply answered the veiled language in the unveiled language it seems to me that it deserved.

Grillparzer: "From my reading of several threads which have been highlighted by strident debates between you and Mr. Rod, I suspect that you have taken an "anti-Franz" stance simply because I have agreed with him on some things that he has said. Is this not so?"

No. Because you yourself have said similar things in similar narrow-minded absolutist fashion, it has brought similar responses from me. I shall always endeavor to challenge narrow-mindedness when I think the topic is worth it.

One more thing I wish to reply to, which
is not in the instant quote, is your assertion that I am an absolutist because I continually champion Wagner.

As I said in my prior reply, I only continually championed Wagner in this thread because of Rod's, and later your, attacks. While I have brought him up myself before, similar absolutist attacks have lengthened those threads also. And with due modesty, I think my words have caused a few members who I am aware of who rejected W. to reconsider him, the influence of B. on him, and even enjoy listening to something by him. Thus widening their experience. Not a bad accomplishment, once again noting the forum guidelines.

So much for my why I comment on him. As for my "absolutism", I have never stated that Wagner is the greatest composer and that other composers are not worth listening to. Nor did I say, in the thread on Handel "vs." Bach, that Handel was more or less unworthy of listening to after one understood Bach well. Those instances are why I, in contrast to you and Rod, am not an absolutist.

Chaszz



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited August 14, 2003).]

[jankoss]

chaszz,
the buggers are right: wagner was not influenced by beethoven, cpe bach was not influenced by js bach, brahms was not influenced by viotti, vanhal's last symphonies were not influenced by vanhal's early symphonies, first humans were adam and eve, and the millions of children that died of hunger are partying now in heaven...

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by jankoss:
chaszz,
the buggers are right: wagner was not influenced by beethoven, cpe bach was not influenced by js bach, brahms was not influenced by viotti, vanhal's last symphonies were not influenced by vanhal's early symphonies, first humans were adam and eve, and the millions of children that died of hunger are partying now in heaven...

One thing that may be said about the Beethoven site is that you can never predict what you're going to read here...

Chaszz