Wagner & Beethoven

[John Rasmussen]

A quick note about societies and clubs: There are joiners, and non-joiners. Many of us, though we may be as passionate about Wagner, Beethoven, et al as any of the joiners, prefer to spend our valuable time and energy on personal growth and informal conversation rather than club structure and organization.

More later on the complex similarities and differences between Beethoven and Wagner.

P.S. My sister is finally getting rid of her old LP's, and among my acquisitions from her set is the complete Ring by Furtwaengler at La Scala. I'm gradually working my way through it; my first impression is that there could scarcely be a better Ring anywhere. Furtwaengler was a phenomenon the likes of which we may never see again.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:

Ring by Furtwaengler at La Scala.

John,
What year was this?

[Amalie]

Hi Space,
Without meaning to sound like some tiresome old Xanthippe, it is certainly not my intention to make light entertainment of previous subjects that I have posted.
I thought this was supposed to be a learned forum where a free exchange of views between people with a shared interest in Beethoven and related composers.

Perhaps my pure love and admiration for Beethoven has caused me to be a little over enthusiastic and trust that my previous postings were evidence or at least shown some limited insight into wider aspects of Beethoven's art and music. Perhaps, Spaceray, you can tell me what aspects are non-tiresome.
I find the subject of Beethoven an inexhaustable treasurehouse of musical delight, pleasure and enlightenment, and I am sure we can all agree on this here.
All of us have something valuable to contribute.
I recall a little while back when Peter suggested ideas and topics for the forum as it was probably getting a bit stagnant, (I mean that in the kindest way), but he didn't get much feed back, hence the reason for my initiating a few topics for discussion. But I feel my efforts and enthusiasm have been thwarted.
I think Peter is working on a discussion page on Beethoven's string quartets, which I would welcome.

By the way Space, I hope your fractured hand has healed up and you are now back to playing the piano.

*****************************************

Beethoven is truth and truth is Beethoven


Regards
Amalie




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited August 10, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
Listen to anything posted on the Authentic mp3 page

Rod, when are you going to upload an orchestral authentic instrument mp3 for our delight?

[Amalie]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Rod, when are you going to upload an orchestral authentic instrument mp3 for our delight?

I would second that!---


[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited August 10, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Rod, when are you going to upload an orchestral authentic instrument mp3 for our delight?

Well, I'm going throught the main works roughly in order of opus number, so the next piece will be op11, which means the first orchestral work with be the first piano concerto, which should be comming shortly. Op11 (both versions) will appear next week.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited August 10, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I'm going throught the main works roughly in order of opus number, so the next piece will be op11, which means the first orchestral work with be the first piano concerto, which should be comming shortly. Op11 (both versions) will appear next week.

Hmm. Very interesting. I shall look forward to those.

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well this is an interesting point, for, going beyond my crazed assertions as expressed above, even within the realm of Beethoven's own output there are prerequisits to be met. I have the lieder volume myself which is good value, though I am no fan at all of Fischer-Dieskau. Some of the other volumes are useful in that the have alot of rare material compiled together that took me many years to collect elsewhere.

That being said...wait for it...I would not consider buying the main works as presented in this edition, which is not 'complete' in any case, though in the past I have had all of the main works many times over on modern instruments. I do not need to explain my position here other than the fact I grew tired of the music as it was conventionally presented, just keep downloading the period instrument mp3s I provide at the main site and you will see why I prefer period instrument renditions of Beethoven.

Mr. Rod,
Ah, yes, I see what you are saying. However, it is NOT the main works which attracted me, it was the "small", rare works, many of which are available in North America in only 1 recorded version, which finally made me decide to make this purchase. Your philosophy of being discerning in your purchasing though has great appeal for me, it is a pleasure to finally meet someone with standards. Though your focus is perhaps a bit too narrow for my taste, at least you have a focus. Too rare!

------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by spaceray:

John,
What year was this?

1950. Wotan: Ferdinand Frantz. Brunnhilde: Kirsten Flagstad. Siegfried: Set Svanholm in Siegfried, Max Lorenz in Goetterdaemmerung. Sieglinde Wagner, the composer's granddaughter (I think), sang Flosshilde the Rhinemaiden and Grimgerge, a Valkyrie. I'm not familiar with any of the other vocalists, but they're all superb; it appears that Furtwaengler's conducting drew the best out of everybody, especially including La Scala's orchestra.

[Grillparzer]

It is most unfortunate that we cannot know what B's thought of Wagner was, so this thread has no possibility of proceeding. I am now thinking that Rod is correct, as seems to be usual, and that Wagner discussions are perhaps out of place on this little website. Perhaps we must not be limited to only Beethoven and Handel, but at least B's opinion of Handel is germane to the site. What might the 40 volume set of Handel scores that B received for a gift at his last illness be worth today. 40 volumes! I never realized Handel was so prolific. Perhaps this bears looking into.


------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[spaceray]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
1950. Wotan: Ferdinand Frantz. Brunnhilde: Kirsten Flagstad. Siegfried: Set Svanholm in Siegfried, Max Lorenz in Goetterdaemmerung. Sieglinde Wagner, the composer's granddaughter (I think), sang Flosshilde the Rhinemaiden and Grimgerge, a Valkyrie. I'm not familiar with any of the other vocalists, but they're all superb; it appears that Furtwaengler's conducting drew the best out of everybody, especially including La Scala's orchestra.

John,
Kirsten Flagstad's Brunnhilde was remarkable singing I remember an old record I had but can't remember if it was Furtwaengler's ,What a voice!

Muriel

[Rod]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
It is most unfortunate that we cannot know what B's thought of Wagner was, so this thread has no possibility of proceeding. I am now thinking that Rod is correct, as seems to be usual, and that Wagner discussions are perhaps out of place on this little website. Perhaps we must not be limited to only Beethoven and Handel, but at least B's opinion of Handel is germane to the site. What might the 40 volume set of Handel scores that B received for a gift at his last illness be worth today. 40 volumes! I never realized Handel was so prolific. Perhaps this bears looking into.

Well, I always think composers who influenced Beethoven are more relevant to this site than those composers who came after whom beethoven himself may have influenced. The latter situation does not really improve our knowledge from a Beethovenian perspective. Thus Mozart would be more legitimate than Wagner for example.

Handel's output was indeed prolific, yet most of even his major compositions are unknown amongst the general CM community, hence I started a Handel yahoogroup to address the situation (check my profile for the url). I notice Theodora, his penultimate oratorio (and best in my opinion) is being performed at Glyndebourne again. A definite recommendation, for the select (and probably unworthy) few that may be allowed in!



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, I always think composers who influenced Beethoven are more relevant to this site than those composers who came after whom beethoven himself may have influenced. The latter situation does not really improve our knowledge from a Beethovenian perspective. Thus Mozart would be more legitimate than Wagner for example.

Handel's output was indeed prolific, yet most of even his major compositions are unknown amongst the general CM community, hence I started a Handel yahoogroup to address the situation (check my profile for the url). I notice Theodora, his penultimate oratorio (and best in my opinion) is being performed at Glyndebourne again. A definite recommendation, for the select (and probably unworthy) few that may be allowed in!

Mr. Rod,
I will indeed check out your Handel site. I may just add that in ANY context, Mozart is more relevant than Wagner.



------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Grillparzer:
Mr. Rod,
I will indeed check out your Handel site. I may just add that in ANY context, Mozart is more relevant than Wagner.

Whom Beethoven influenced, and the course classical music took as a result of his work, is as relevant to the discussion forum as is a study of who influenced him. Beethoven himself would probably be more interested in the future of his music and its influence than in its past, since he mostly knew its past. As for your parting shot at Wagner, it would seem a little wide-encompassing and absolutist to say that Mozart is more relevant than Wagner is ANY context, without even specifying what the context might be. But then absolutists don't condescend to worry about logical trifles like that.

It is your own opinion and you're entitled to it, but there are others who post on this site who may disagree with you. Something else an absolutist disdains to bother much about.

Chaszz

[Grillparzer]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Whom Beethoven influenced, and the course classical music took as a result of his work, is as relevant to the discussion forum as is a study of who influenced him. Beethoven himself would probably be more interested in the future of his music and its influence than in its past, since he mostly knew its past. As for your parting shot at Wagner, it would seem a little wide-encompassing and absolutist to say that Mozart is more relevant than Wagner is ANY context, without even specifying what the context might be. But then absolutists don't condescend to worry about logical trifles like that.

It is your own opinion and you're entitled to it, but there are others who post on this site who may disagree with you. Something else an absolutist disdains to bother much about.

Chaszz

Mr. Chaszz,
You call me an absolutist, but it seems to me you are equally so with your continual championing of a composer who is obviously not to the taste of more people here than those who agree with you. I also do not see B's purported influence on Wagner, despite your protestations to the contrary. I instead see that Wagner is merely the ultimate example of Romantic excess, in no wise related to the classical beauty of Beethoven and his immediate predecessors, Haydn and Mozart. As for my use of a general statement out of any specific context, I think the statement speaks for itself. Even in the rather limited area of German mythological operas, I would take Die Zauberflote over Tannhauser any day.

------------------
Adieu,
Franz

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~