If Beethoven were alive today...

[urtextmeister]

This question was inspired the latest posts in the Haydn-at-Mozart's-death thread:
If Beethoven were alive today, who would he most likely be?
-Michael Jackson
-Phillip Glass
-Madonna
-John Adams
-Bill Gates
-Rush Limbaugh
-Paul McCartney
-George Crumb
-Terry Riley
-other
For the sake of argument, let's assume he wouldn't be some obscure guy working at MacDonald's and writing great music in his spare time.

[Peter]

Well he wouldn't be any of those that's for sure - he'd be Beethoven! He was (like the rest of us) unique and no one can ever be anyone else. Strange choice your list anyway as I don't see anyone there who has an ounce of Beethoven's genius!

In musical terms Prokofiev is the only composer I can think of who attemted a 'what if?' with his Classical Symphony which he said was perhaps the sort of Symphony Haydn would have written had he lived in the 20th century.

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'Man know thyself'

[Michael]

If Beethoven were alive today, he would be more famous for his age than his music.

Michael

[Poseidan73]

If i had to choose, it'd be Bjork.

[Rutradelusasa]

I think it is more likely that he'd be an obscure guy working at McDonald's and writing awesome music for some time, until he gets famous and rich, that he'd be people like philip glass...

[SR]

Kind of an odd list of names you've chosen. Rush Limbaugh or Madonna ?

I think Beethoven would still be an artist, but maybe not music. I've often mentioned that I think Danny Elfman (comedy, jazz, rock band Oingo Boingo, and film scoring) is most like what Mozart would be were he alive today. Somehow I see Beethoven more in the Bernard Herrman/ John Williams mold. Maybe even a David Lynch or Frederico Fellini or Martin Scorsese. There are alot of artistic outlets for a deaf man that were not available to Beethoven.

Regards

Steve

[urtextmeister]

I should have phrased my question a little more carefully. Yes, if Beethoven were alive today, he would still be Beethoven. He would probably turn around and head for the 19th century. What I should have said was, "who might be the Beethoven-like figure of our time?"
Interesting point about Prokofiev's "Classical Symphony." Would Haydn have written like that if he lived in the 20th century? Maybe if he were just visiting the 20th century...
Danny Elfman as Mozart? I like that. I can see a contemporary Mozart being versatile, keeping up with current styles and cashing on big movie/tv projects(Elfman wrote the theme for "The Simpsons.")
Comparing Beethoven to big-time movie directors is probably appropriate. Could Hollywood be our Vienna?
I can't quite see Beethoven as John Williams, though. He seems a little tame.

My list was a bit facetious. Consider Michael Jackson, however. Both were child prodigies. Both had a big impact on others in their field. Both went through stylistic periods. If only Beethoven had a couple nose jobs, the comparison would be complete.

I wonder whether our current Beethoven would be a so-called serious music composer. The intellectual challenge would be more appealing to him, but would his father have pushed him into classical music to bring wealth and fame into the family?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I should have phrased my question a little more carefully. Yes, if Beethoven were alive today, he would still be Beethoven. He would probably turn around and head for the 19th century. What I should have said was, "who might be the Beethoven-like figure of our time?"

I would have to think in terms of Stravinsky or Schoenberg especially in respect to the way that their music influenced the rest of the 20th Century. While Bartok was extremely innovative I don't seem as being as influential. Those are my primary choices.

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
My list was a bit facetious. Consider Michael Jackson, however. Both were child prodigies. Both had a big impact on others in their field. Both went through stylistic periods. If only Beethoven had a couple nose jobs, the comparison would be complete.

I wonder whether our current Beethoven would be a so-called serious music composer. The intellectual challenge would be more appealing to him, but would his father have pushed him into classical music to bring wealth and fame into the family?

Had Beethoven been born in the 20th century he would still have been a musician - after all great musicians - i.e a genius is born with that drive to fulfil their potential. He would in all probability still have been a virtuoso pianist, but the music would of course have been very different.

As to the Michael Jackson comparison - hmm! Mozart was probably the most famous child prodigy and I think you have to appreciate exactly what it means before applying the term loosely to anyone. At 4 Mozart's father returned home to find the 4 year old composing a piano concerto, at 6 playing sonatas, trios, concertos, improvising for up to an hour and transposing at sight. At 8 he was composing symphonies, at 11 an oratorio, at 12 an opera. At 14 he astonished all by writing out from memory Allegri's Misere which he had heard in the Sistine Chapel Rome. This gives just some idea of what being a child prodigy really means.

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Peter,

I don't know why I called Beethoven a child prodigy. Of course he wasn't in comparison to Mozart or Mendelssohn. I'm sure he was a pretty sharp music student as a boy, but he wasn't performing frequently in the public eye or amassing a body of works.
I keep wondering whether Beethoven would be in the mainstream of music, or some other branch. Oddly enough, I can see Mozart selling out and becoming a big pop music producer--someone who knows the latest styles and how to market the right image. His talents which earned him a pauper's grave in pauper's grave in his first life would yield big bucks in this one.
Beethoven, I am beginning to think, would be all caught up in integrity and substance. He would be professor at some ivy league school. Nobody would know about him, but a handful of academics.
If that were true, Beethoven would have none of the impact that he originally did.
How can a composer of serious music affect the world like Beethoven did in his time?

Regarding the comments about Stravinsky and Bartok: you're taking the easy route and expanding our search to the whole 20th century. I agree with you about Stravinsky. He had the stylistic periods like Beethoven, huge impact on his time and an intense focus on music throughout his life.
I think a big difference between these composers is that Beethoven was starting his career at a time when the classical style was well defined and set. Stravinsky started composing during a time of musical uncertainty.

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Peter,

I don't know why I called Beethoven a child prodigy. Of course he wasn't in comparison to Mozart or Mendelssohn. I'm sure he was a pretty sharp music student as a boy, but he wasn't performing frequently in the public eye or amassing a body of works.
I keep wondering whether Beethoven would be in the mainstream of music, or some other branch. Oddly enough, I can see Mozart selling out and becoming a big pop music producer--someone who knows the latest styles and how to market the right image. His talents which earned him a pauper's grave in pauper's grave in his first life would yield big bucks in this one.
Beethoven, I am beginning to think, would be all caught up in integrity and substance. He would be professor at some ivy league school. Nobody would know about him, but a handful of academics.
If that were true, Beethoven would have none of the impact that he originally did.
How can a composer of serious music affect the world like Beethoven did in his time?

Regarding the comments about Stravinsky and Bartok: you're taking the easy route and expanding our search to the whole 20th century. I agree with you about Stravinsky. He had the stylistic periods like Beethoven, huge impact on his time and an intense focus on music throughout his life.
I think a big difference between these composers is that Beethoven was starting his career at a time when the classical style was well defined and set. Stravinsky started composing during a time of musical uncertainty.

Well it wasn't your calling Beethoven a prodigy I was taking issue with, it was Michael Jackson! You keep making comparisons with pop music of today which I don't see at all - neither Beethoven nor Mozart were composers who wrote solely for popular appeal, (though admittedly on occasion both composers did this with their dance music and in a few other works). Surely composers such as Johann Strauss or Franz Lehar would be a more fitting comparison?

You ask how a composer of serious music could affect the world as in Beethoven's time. Well I don't think Beethoven affected the non-musical world - educated people would probably have heard something of his, but your average American or European wouldn't have known a note (just as today!). I suppose the most obvious medium for more serious music today would be film and that surely has a huge impact. When the film Death in Venice came out, some Hollywood producer said 'who is this guy Mahler, can we sign him?' !!!

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Maybe comparing classical composers to pop musicians of today is not appropriate. In that case, where are today's Beethovens and Haydns? In academia? In the minimalist movement? In film music(you hinted at this, Peter, but film composers are so behind the scenes. People don't usually walk away from a movie thinking, what a great composer!)?
I think this gets at the heart of my original question. One possible answer that comes to mind is a little chilling: maybe there is no room in today's society for a Beethoven. I hope somebody will assure me this isn't the case.
I must take issue with a comment in the previous post. Beethoven may not have been heard by a great many during his time, but I believe the vast majority of people alive today would recognize the opening bars of the 5th symphony.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Peter,

Regarding the comments about Stravinsky and Bartok: you're taking the easy route and expanding our search to the whole 20th century. I agree with you about Stravinsky. He had the stylistic periods like Beethoven, huge impact on his time and an intense focus on music throughout his life.
I think a big difference between these composers is that Beethoven was starting his career at a time when the classical style was well defined and set. Stravinsky started composing during a time of musical uncertainty.

When Beethoven began composing classicism in music was already on the wane; it had reached its peak. Remember, too, that Stravinsky came in at the end of the romantic period and his early works reflect that. I believe it was him that referred to the "abyss of freedom" or something like that in relation to the new music styles that were coming out. Composers such as Debussy reached that abyss, but turned back. Stravinsky plunged full ahead and tried many styles and was succesful.

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
I must take issue with a comment in the previous post. Beethoven may not have been heard by a great many during his time, but I believe the vast majority of people alive today would recognize the opening bars of the 5th symphony.

Yes the opening bars maybe, but more people probably know the theme tune from Star wars! I don't think there is anyone living at present that we are aware of who is a leonardo da Vinci, a Shakespeare or a Beethoven - such figures are rare in history and we may have to wait another 500 years for another!

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Sorrano,

I'm not sure I agree that the classical style was on it's way out when Beethoven began composing.
Mozart and Haydn and many other composers were still composing in a pretty familiar style, putting in strokes of genius, but keeping the overall form recognizable as symphony, concerto, sonata, etc. And they were still in favor with the music-loving public (especially Haydn). Beethoven was happy to work within the boundaries of the classical style and expand them more and more as he grew artistically.
Stravinsky on the other hand came along when music was going in several different directions at once. Brahms had finished pounding the sonata and concerto into dust, Wagner had invented the neverending opera and Liszt and Debussy were experimenting with filmy harmonies that no longer functioned in predictable ways. And consider all of the musical trends that occured once the 20th century was under way! Everything from serial composition to jazz influenced concertos.
I believe that Stravinsky was born into a more confusing era, musically, than was Beethoven.
I acknowledge your point about the parallels between Beethoven and Stravinsky and the times in which they live. I just think there were a lot more options for Stravinsky than there were for Beethoven.

And think of the options a composer has today. Isn't this the most musically confusing start to a century?