If Beethoven were alive today...

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

When I compose I often find that music takes its own direction, as though it were sentient and had its own will. Like Peter, I don't think that was Beethoven's intent to shock the world, but rather to express some ideas that needed expressing. If the world was to be shocked by it, then so be it. ("Es muss sein!")

As an aside, it has just occured to me that the opening words of the libretto to Handel's final oratorio Jephtha are, translated to German, "Es muss sein!". I know not if B was aware of this from his increasing Handelian interest in his later years.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

First of all, I am intrigued by your Handel reference, Rod. It makes as much sense to me as the other explanations I have seen for this strange phrase. Maybe you should write an article and submit it to a musicological journal.
I guess no respectable composer really writes music with sole purpose of shocking, but isn't sometimes an element of trying to do something new?
I had a composition course once that was devoted to experimental music--things that had never been done. It was never difficult to come up with ideas. Playing the inside of a piano? Been done. Reciting the phone book? Been done. The chainsaw as a musical instrument. Been done. Many students were frustrated. Using musical pitches was especially difficult. Octaves, thirds--boring. Been done. Many resorted to extramusical elements such as visual props to make something seem new.
I don't believe that all composer consciously seek out what is shocking or avoid anything traditional like we did in that class, but don't all composers want to be heard as an original voice, someone with a fresh take on things?
Sorrano, always interesting to hear how someone composes. The creative process is very interesting and it is certainly not a matter of thinking, "how can I shock the world today." But wouldn't you be disapointed if your composition turned out to be warmed-over Rachmaninoff instead of fresh and "new" sounding?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

I guess no respectable composer really writes music with sole purpose of shocking, but isn't sometimes an element of trying to do something new?
I had a composition course once that was devoted to experimental music--things that had never been done. It was never difficult to come up with ideas. Playing the inside of a piano? Been done. Reciting the phone book? Been done. The chainsaw as a musical instrument. Been done. Many students were frustrated. Using musical pitches was especially difficult. Octaves, thirds--boring. Been done. Many resorted to extramusical elements such as visual props to make something seem new.
I don't believe that all composer consciously seek out what is shocking or avoid anything traditional like we did in that class, but don't all composers want to be heard as an original voice, someone with a fresh take on things?
Sorrano, always interesting to hear how someone composes. The creative process is very interesting and it is certainly not a matter of thinking, "how can I shock the world today." But wouldn't you be disapointed if your composition turned out to be warmed-over Rachmaninoff instead of fresh and "new" sounding?

If what I had written came from my heart and truly represented what I felt it should I have little care what the world might tink of it. (But I don't want wish to be compared with Rachmaninoff!) I think that we (musicians--composers) tend to stretch the idea of novelty beyond the realms of reason. Haydn, in his day, did not depart far from the norm but with little things here and there provided some very original and delightful music. From a harmonic and formal background, Beethoven's music isn't that much different than his peers. I like Bartok, too, as a highly original composer. While he played with complex meters and some polytonality his music is very listenable (I feel) to the general public, perhaps due to the inclusion of many folk tunes.

[solarflare]

As a good friend of mine once said:
Beethoven composed for nearly 50 years and has since decomposed for 170 years.
I think we better keep it that way...

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by solarflare:
As a good friend of mine once said:
Beethoven composed for nearly 50 years and has since decomposed for 170 years.
I think we better keep it that way...

Which puts me in mind of a cartoon I once saw and found amusing, perhaps it was a Far Side. 2 Men standing in front of Beethoven's grave, music staff and opening notes of the 5th Symphony coming out backwards, one says to the other "well, he's decomposing". So shoot me, I chortled. ;-))
Regards,
Gurn

[spaceray]

Isn't there a funny song about decomposing composers?Was it a Flanders and Swann bit?

[Zon]

Interesing thought. My 2 cents is a little off the subject. I do not feel Beethoven could be Beethoven nowadays. Music has (for the most part) been getting steadily worse since Bs time. Due to technologies which have, for the most part, shortened attention spands from a 2 hour symphony to a 1 measure loop that repeats for 3 minutes.
I am not trying to generalize, obviously everyone on this message board digs good music ;-) but todays society would not have the capacity to recognize his genius. I do, however agree with something along the lines of Danny Elfman, I am a huge fan of his music.

[John Rasmussen]

Going back to the original question:

Bob Dylan. His songs are perfectly constructed in their way, and they also have passion and deep meaning. (Unfortunately I haven't heard a lot of his more recent stuff, so I don't know if he's still the same firebrand he was in the 60's and 70's.)

And if we go back a little farther, I would mention Edgard Varese. His complete works can fit on two CDs, but they all have power and perfection, and many of the smaller works are perfect microcosms. The difference is that his music has almost nothing at all to do with earlier music.

Stravinsky's name has come up many times, but I don't see him as a real parallel. Beethoven moved from traditional to radical; Stravinsky in his long life did almost the opposite. Sure, he began in the Romantic style and then exploded into The Rite of Spring; but look what he produced shortly thereafter: the Pulcinella ballet, Apollon Musagete, the Symphony of Psalms and Symphony in C, among many other neoclassical works; and even his later twelve-tone works, what I've heard of them, have a rather neoclassic sound. The Rite of Spring stands alone in his work. He himself said, "I am the vessel through which Le Sacre passed."

[spaceray]

Another Stravinsky quote " I haven't understood a bar of music in my life ,but I have felt it."

[mrfixit]

Zon i think attention spans of most normal people have always been short. I suffer from a short attention span sometimes as well(all them pesky video games lol). Anyway i recall that people used to moan about beethovens music being too long and they whined about it when they went to peformances his works when they were newly composed. I have also read a lot of reviews from the 19th centry criticizing beethovens 9th symphony as being far too long. When my freind looked at a cd for the 9th symphony he asked how i could listen to shit like that for so long. ( i wasnt sure to smack him one or laugh) Anyway my point is the more things change the more they stay the same.

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
...When my freind looked at a cd for the 9th symphony he asked how i could listen to shit like that for so long. ( i wasnt sure to smack him one or laugh) Anyway my point is the more things change the more they stay the same.

Just ask him if he likes the Lord of the Rings movies.

[Amalie]

Beethoven, der Wegbereiter!

For me Beethoven is very much alive; in many ways 'B' shaped the modern world.
We live in an age of many revolutions and Beethoved was a revolutionary composer of a revolutionary age.
The 5th symphony announces a truimphant new age for man, but Beethoven became disillusioned and increasingly saw mans liberation in nature and mans inner-self.
We are living in the musical and indeed intellectual landscape that Beethoven largely created and shaped. In some senses we can't get a perspective on his music, because he us such a towering and important figure in Western culture.
His music, like the 9th symphony is an eternal 'living force', and still has Beethoven's original power in it, which we in a sense become a part of, when we listen to these great works and become a part of his world.
The boundless fecundity of his creative processes which 'Trailblazed' paths into the divine!
Beethoven's massive presence is more alive and with us in a deeper sense that many of the legions of the 'undead adherents' of trash modern culture that surrounds us.


Lysander



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 26, 2003).]

[janocreat]

if beethoven would be alive in our time he would still be one of (if not) the greatest composers of all time. a born talent is always a talent. his soul is music and he for sure would not be a “banker”. since he would be exposed to the inspiration of our time he probably would use the style of music and sounds of our time. i just saw roger water’s “the wall - live in berlin” (on dvd) -- i think it’s a great(!) concert and great(!) music -- it made me think about beethoven, and i thought beethoven–if alive today–might compose something on that scale, in that style ... probably even greater. he would compose with “his” persona today, with “his” genius, on the same level he did about 200 years ago : heavy, bombastic, dimensional, dramatic, playful, light, emotional, vehement, inovative, expressive ...
he probably even would have purple-blue hair.
michael

[This message has been edited by janocreat (edited August 08, 2003).]

[spaceray]

Beethoven with purple-blue hair could a bad choice for him as it might tend to make him resemble Bozo The Clown.

[janocreat]

whatever beethoven's hair color or look would be ... he still would make great music ... (by the way, bozo has red hair).
michael