The form of the adagio sostenuto of the Hammerklavier sonata is a sonata, right? If it is, then why did B. put such a short development in front of the enormous thematic exposition? Could we consider it a sonatina in form, because it has a rather short passage that leads unto the recapitulation of material?
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The slow movement is in 'sonata form' but it isn't a sonata! A Sonata is a work of 2 or more contrasting movements for solo or a combination of instruments and this describes Op.106 as a whole. Sonata form is not defined by the length of the individual parts of a movement. There is no such thing as 'Sonatina form' - a Sonatina in its original sense was an easy work usually for beginners and on a much smaller scale than a Sonata. The Sonatinas of Ravel and John Ireland though are certainly not for beginners!
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by chopithoven:
The form of the adagio sostenuto of the Hammerklavier sonata is a sonata, right? If it is, then why did B. put such a short development in front of the enormous thematic exposition? Could we consider it a sonatina in form, because it has a rather short passage that leads unto the recapitulation of material?
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Originally posted by Peter:
The slow movement is in 'sonata form' but it isn't a sonata! A Sonata is a work of 2 or more contrasting movements for solo or a combination of instruments and this describes Op.106 as a whole. Sonata form is not defined by the length of the individual parts of a movement. There is no such thing as 'Sonatina form' - a Sonatina in its original sense was an easy work usually for beginners and on a much smaller scale than a Sonata. The Sonatinas of Ravel and John Ireland though are certainly not for beginners!
You can read it here:
http://plaza.obu.edu/houlihanp/theor...notes20025.htm
[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 25, 2003).]
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Originally posted by chopithoven:
Yes, development comes after exposition. With 'in front' I meant 'compared to'. Apologies for my poor english. I'm not a native speaker.
Sontatina form (at least the first movement) is simply a minature Sonata-Allegro. Often, it goes A B Short Develop. A B. The development may be nothing more than a transition between the exposition and the recap. Or there may not even be a development; then it is more of a binary form than a sonata. (However, the bridges between A and B with the modulations from I to V or i to III in minor give this from more of a Sonata-Allegro flavor than a binary.)
Hope that helps a little.
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Actually, I seem to recall from both my Theory and Analysis college courses that sonatina form is indeed sonata form without a development section. Still, most analysts would hesitate to apply that designation to this huge movement, or to the Andante moderato in Brahms 4, or even to the Marriage of Figaro overture, which also lacks a development.
And, as for many issues, I suppose there are different schools of thought.
[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited July 25, 2003).]
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Originally posted by Sorrano:
Perhaps you really meant before the recapitulation
Sontatina form (at least the first movement) is simply a minature Sonata-Allegro. Often, it goes A B Short Develop. A B. The development may be nothing more than a transition between the exposition and the recap. Or there may not even be a development; then it is more of a binary form than a sonata. (However, the bridges between A and B with the modulations from I to V or i to III in minor give this from more of a Sonata-Allegro flavor than a binary.)
Hope that helps a little.
But in the adagio sostenuto we don't have clear transitions between themes. There are two big sections in f sharp minor and another one in d major. The 'development', based on falling thirds, is more like that transition between exposition and recapitulation, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. So how could we label this movement's form?
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Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Actually, I seem to recall from both my Theory and Analysis college courses that sonatina form is indeed sonata form without a development section. Still, most analysts would hesitate to apply that designation to this huge movement, or to the Andante moderato in Brahms 4, or even to the Marriage of Figaro overture, which also lacks a development.
And, as for many issues, I suppose there are different schools of thought.
[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited July 25, 2003).]
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Originally posted by chopithoven:
Right, it can be just a transition. I also understand your point about the different theme's tonalities.
But in the adagio sostenuto we don't have clear transitions between themes. There are two big sections in f sharp minor and another one in d major. The 'development', based on falling thirds, is more like that transition between exposition and recapitulation, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. So how could we label this movement's form?
Without knowing the music very well it's hard to make any kind of call on it. From your descriptions I am enclined to think of a complex binary A B Transition A B. If the middle section is a development then Sonata-Allegro is probably more correct than Sonatina because it is more complex. (But all this is based more on your and Peter's descriptions than my own analysis of the movement.)
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Originally posted by chopithoven:
Right, it can be just a transition. I also understand your point about the different theme's tonalities.
But in the adagio sostenuto we don't have clear transitions between themes. There are two big sections in f sharp minor and another one in d major. The 'development', based on falling thirds, is more like that transition between exposition and recapitulation, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. So how could we label this movement's form?
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Peter:
I still think the movement is sonata form otherwise known (confusingly) as first movement form!
[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 26, 2003).]
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Originally posted by chopithoven:
And how would you justify that the middle section is a development (corresponding to sonata form) and not a 'brief transition' (corresponding to sonatina form)? I'm not denying anything, I just want to know!
[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 26, 2003).]
The development begins at bar 69 with 4 bars of the main theme in D, with a new bass counterpoint in contrary motion - this is then inverted in double counterpoint in C# major. The treble then has the melody in Eb, then the opening phrase is compressed into 3 notes passing upwards through 9 modulating steps. Further variety is given by alternations of octave and of una corda and forte.
Development sections do not always have to be on a massive scale, Beethoven was quite capable of being concise - more so than my explanation I fear!
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'Man know thyself'
[This message has been edited by Peter (edited July 27, 2003).]'Man know thyself'
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Originally posted by Peter:
Firstly the transition passage in this movement occurs at bars 27-38 in the Exposition and bars 113-129 in the recapitulation. The function of the transition (bridge) is to prepare the new key for the 2nd group of themes (D major bar 45 in exposition).
The development begins at bar 69 with 4 bars of the main theme in D, with a new bass counterpoint in contrary motion - this is then inverted in double counterpoint in C# major. The treble then has the melody in Eb, then the opening phrase is compressed into 3 notes passing upwards through 9 modulating steps. Further variety is given by alternations of octave and of una corda and forte.
Development sections do not always have to be on a massive scale, Beethoven was quite capable of being concise - more so than my explanation I fear!
Anyway, now I wholly agree on that it's a development. I must be honest: before, I didn't realize that the four bars 69-72 contained the main theme in d major, in c sharp in measures 73-76, and compressed in the una corda-tutte le corde passage. That was my fault, so I thank you for making me discover that.
I have another doubt: why do you consider measures 27-38 of the exposition to be a transition and not a theme in theirselves? I know they still have the tonic tonality f sharp minor, but they're totally independent material from the first theme. Why can't we consider those measures the second of three themes?
[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 27, 2003).]
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Originally posted by chopithoven:
I have another doubt: why do you consider measures 27-38 of the exposition to be a transition and not a theme in theirselves? I know they still have the tonic tonality f sharp minor, but they're totally independent material from the first theme. Why can't we consider those measures the second of three themes?
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'Man know thyself''Man know thyself'
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