Adagio sostenuto

[chopithoven]

The form of the adagio sostenuto of the Hammerklavier sonata is a sonata, right? If it is, then why did B. put such a short development in front of the enormous thematic exposition? Could we consider it a sonatina in form, because it has a rather short passage that leads unto the recapitulation of material?

[Peter]

The slow movement is in 'sonata form' but it isn't a sonata! A Sonata is a work of 2 or more contrasting movements for solo or a combination of instruments and this describes Op.106 as a whole. Sonata form is not defined by the length of the individual parts of a movement. There is no such thing as 'Sonatina form' - a Sonatina in its original sense was an easy work usually for beginners and on a much smaller scale than a Sonata. The Sonatinas of Ravel and John Ireland though are certainly not for beginners!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
The form of the adagio sostenuto of the Hammerklavier sonata is a sonata, right? If it is, then why did B. put such a short development in front of the enormous thematic exposition? Could we consider it a sonatina in form, because it has a rather short passage that leads unto the recapitulation of material?

I though development came after, not before, exposition, in sonata form. Or does 'in front of' mean 'after' in this post?

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
The slow movement is in 'sonata form' but it isn't a sonata! A Sonata is a work of 2 or more contrasting movements for solo or a combination of instruments and this describes Op.106 as a whole. Sonata form is not defined by the length of the individual parts of a movement. There is no such thing as 'Sonatina form' - a Sonatina in its original sense was an easy work usually for beginners and on a much smaller scale than a Sonata. The Sonatinas of Ravel and John Ireland though are certainly not for beginners!

Yes, I know the difference between sonata and sonata form. But I have seen the term 'sonatina form' in program notes and theoric explanations describing a sonata form without development, or with a short section, that does not have the function of development, leading unto recapitulation, besides the meaning you're giving. Examples of this 'sonatina form' are the slow movement of LVB's sonata Op.10 in c minor or the slow movement of Brahms' 4th symphony. What I meant is, since the 'development' in the adagio sostenuto is so short, and apparently does not develop the exposed themes, could it be a short section leading unto the recapitulation, and thus a 'sonatina form' if you allow that term, and not a conventional development, as we see in the first movement of the Hammerklavier?

You can read it here:
http://plaza.obu.edu/houlihanp/theor...notes20025.htm

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 25, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
I though development came after, not before, exposition, in sonata form. Or does 'in front of' mean 'after' in this post?

Yes, development comes after exposition. With 'in front' I meant 'compared to'. Apologies for my poor english. I'm not a native speaker.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Yes, development comes after exposition. With 'in front' I meant 'compared to'. Apologies for my poor english. I'm not a native speaker.

Perhaps you really meant before the recapitulation

Sontatina form (at least the first movement) is simply a minature Sonata-Allegro. Often, it goes A B Short Develop. A B. The development may be nothing more than a transition between the exposition and the recap. Or there may not even be a development; then it is more of a binary form than a sonata. (However, the bridges between A and B with the modulations from I to V or i to III in minor give this from more of a Sonata-Allegro flavor than a binary.)

Hope that helps a little.

[John Rasmussen]

Actually, I seem to recall from both my Theory and Analysis college courses that sonatina form is indeed sonata form without a development section. Still, most analysts would hesitate to apply that designation to this huge movement, or to the Andante moderato in Brahms 4, or even to the Marriage of Figaro overture, which also lacks a development.

And, as for many issues, I suppose there are different schools of thought.

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited July 25, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Perhaps you really meant before the recapitulation

Sontatina form (at least the first movement) is simply a minature Sonata-Allegro. Often, it goes A B Short Develop. A B. The development may be nothing more than a transition between the exposition and the recap. Or there may not even be a development; then it is more of a binary form than a sonata. (However, the bridges between A and B with the modulations from I to V or i to III in minor give this from more of a Sonata-Allegro flavor than a binary.)

Hope that helps a little.

Right, it can be just a transition. I also understand your point about the different theme's tonalities.

But in the adagio sostenuto we don't have clear transitions between themes. There are two big sections in f sharp minor and another one in d major. The 'development', based on falling thirds, is more like that transition between exposition and recapitulation, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. So how could we label this movement's form?

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Actually, I seem to recall from both my Theory and Analysis college courses that sonatina form is indeed sonata form without a development section. Still, most analysts would hesitate to apply that designation to this huge movement, or to the Andante moderato in Brahms 4, or even to the Marriage of Figaro overture, which also lacks a development.

And, as for many issues, I suppose there are different schools of thought.

[This message has been edited by John Rasmussen (edited July 25, 2003).]

And how would they call them then?

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Right, it can be just a transition. I also understand your point about the different theme's tonalities.

But in the adagio sostenuto we don't have clear transitions between themes. There are two big sections in f sharp minor and another one in d major. The 'development', based on falling thirds, is more like that transition between exposition and recapitulation, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. So how could we label this movement's form?

Without knowing the music very well it's hard to make any kind of call on it. From your descriptions I am enclined to think of a complex binary A B Transition A B. If the middle section is a development then Sonata-Allegro is probably more correct than Sonatina because it is more complex. (But all this is based more on your and Peter's descriptions than my own analysis of the movement.)

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
Right, it can be just a transition. I also understand your point about the different theme's tonalities.

But in the adagio sostenuto we don't have clear transitions between themes. There are two big sections in f sharp minor and another one in d major. The 'development', based on falling thirds, is more like that transition between exposition and recapitulation, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. So how could we label this movement's form?

I still think the movement is sonata form otherwise known (confusingly) as first movement form!

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'Man know thyself'

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
I still think the movement is sonata form otherwise known (confusingly) as first movement form!

And how would you justify that the middle section is a development (corresponding to sonata form) and not a 'brief transition' (corresponding to sonatina form)? I'm not denying anything, I just want to know!


[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 26, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
And how would you justify that the middle section is a development (corresponding to sonata form) and not a 'brief transition' (corresponding to sonatina form)? I'm not denying anything, I just want to know!


[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 26, 2003).]

Firstly the transition passage in this movement occurs at bars 27-38 in the Exposition and bars 113-129 in the recapitulation. The function of the transition (bridge) is to prepare the new key for the 2nd group of themes (D major bar 45 in exposition).

The development begins at bar 69 with 4 bars of the main theme in D, with a new bass counterpoint in contrary motion - this is then inverted in double counterpoint in C# major. The treble then has the melody in Eb, then the opening phrase is compressed into 3 notes passing upwards through 9 modulating steps. Further variety is given by alternations of octave and of una corda and forte.

Development sections do not always have to be on a massive scale, Beethoven was quite capable of being concise - more so than my explanation I fear!


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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited July 27, 2003).]

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Peter:
Firstly the transition passage in this movement occurs at bars 27-38 in the Exposition and bars 113-129 in the recapitulation. The function of the transition (bridge) is to prepare the new key for the 2nd group of themes (D major bar 45 in exposition).

The development begins at bar 69 with 4 bars of the main theme in D, with a new bass counterpoint in contrary motion - this is then inverted in double counterpoint in C# major. The treble then has the melody in Eb, then the opening phrase is compressed into 3 notes passing upwards through 9 modulating steps. Further variety is given by alternations of octave and of una corda and forte.

Development sections do not always have to be on a massive scale, Beethoven was quite capable of being concise - more so than my explanation I fear!

Well, now I see I supposed that the development of this adagio sostenuto was not a development because it is so short in comparison with the very long thematic material, and because I didn't find any relation between the themes and the development. I know B. often made very short developments, but never in such an enormous movement.
Anyway, now I wholly agree on that it's a development. I must be honest: before, I didn't realize that the four bars 69-72 contained the main theme in d major, in c sharp in measures 73-76, and compressed in the una corda-tutte le corde passage. That was my fault, so I thank you for making me discover that.
I have another doubt: why do you consider measures 27-38 of the exposition to be a transition and not a theme in theirselves? I know they still have the tonic tonality f sharp minor, but they're totally independent material from the first theme. Why can't we consider those measures the second of three themes?

[This message has been edited by chopithoven (edited July 27, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by chopithoven:
I have another doubt: why do you consider measures 27-38 of the exposition to be a transition and not a theme in theirselves? I know they still have the tonic tonality f sharp minor, but they're totally independent material from the first theme. Why can't we consider those measures the second of three themes?

Well it is a new theme (still though in the tonic key) therefore it is not the second subject as in sonata form this requires a modulation to a new key (usually dominant - but in this case the submediant D major). It is a bridge passage and prepares the tonality of the 2nd subect with six bars (39-44) of the dominant of D. Notice though how in the recapitulation Beethoven begins this transition passage already in the 2nd subject key! Not conventional by any means -just take the new theme he introduces in the development section of the Eroica 1st mov - by rights it shouldn't be there - no wonder they were bemused!

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'Man know thyself'