Beethoven's Ninth Symphony

[Roger Newton]

I have often wondered whether the Ninth Symphony should be treated somewhat like the Opus 130 Quartet: separate the finale from the rest of the symphony and publish it as a separate work like the Grosse Fuge. The slow movement of the Ninth creates the perfect spiritual finale to the drama of the first movement and the agitation of the Scherzo. It should end the work, and the great choral Finale would be a satisfying separate work like the Grosse Fuge.

(By the way, I thought Beethoven made a great mistake in writing the weak alternative finale to OP. 130. The Cavatina would have made the perfect conclusion, just like the slow movement of the ninth.)

[Rod]

Originally posted by Roger Newton:
I have often wondered whether the Ninth Symphony should be treated somewhat like the Opus 130 Quartet: separate the finale from the rest of the symphony and publish it as a separate work like the Grosse Fuge. The slow movement of the Ninth creates the perfect spiritual finale to the drama of the first movement and the agitation of the Scherzo. It should end the work, and the great choral Finale would be a satisfying separate work like the Grosse Fuge.

(By the way, I thought Beethoven made a great mistake in writing the weak alternative finale to OP. 130. The Cavatina would have made the perfect conclusion, just like the slow movement of the ninth.)

Having heard the choral finale played on its own before, I think it loses something in this detachment. I can't see the adagio as a good finale!

I can't really see how the cavatina would make a good finale either, it's too short in any case. Certainly, if not the fugue, another sonata form allegro would be needed to balance the first movement. The replacement finale I would not describe as weak, I think it is an excellent piece. Quartets do not typically know how to treat this movement however, from my experience.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 19, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Roger Newton:
I have often wondered whether the Ninth Symphony should be treated somewhat like the Opus 130 Quartet: separate the finale from the rest of the symphony and publish it as a separate work like the Grosse Fuge. The slow movement of the Ninth creates the perfect spiritual finale to the drama of the first movement and the agitation of the Scherzo. It should end the work, and the great choral Finale would be a satisfying separate work like the Grosse Fuge.

(By the way, I thought Beethoven made a great mistake in writing the weak alternative finale to OP. 130. The Cavatina would have made the perfect conclusion, just like the slow movement of the ninth.)

Perhaps you should listen to Bruckner's Ninth. The slow movement, in my opinion, offers a wonderful, peaceful conclusion to his symphonic output.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Having heard the choral finale played on its own before, I think it loses something in this detachment. I can't see the adagio as a good finale!

I certainly have to agree here. At least having heard the finale I can't imagine anything else that could conclude this work. The first three movements point to this conclusion and it's the only thing that could have happened in my mind.

[John Rasmussen]

The Ninth's Adagio might make a good ending for lack of better; but as the symphony stands, it's the spiritual center.

Any dissatisfaction with the finale might be traced to poor performance. My own experience is that I've never heard the finale particularly well sung. Sure, the vocal parts are difficult, but not unsingable by any means; I could sing the bass part myself at a pinch. Also, few conductors are bold enough to take the last Prestissimos at a true, headlong run. (Whether performers should stick to LvB's metronome markings is another potential thread.)

Has anyone heard Opus 130 with the Grosse Fuge in its original place as finale?

[Roger Newton]

Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
The Ninth's Adagio might make a good ending for lack of better; but as the symphony stands, it's the spiritual center.

Any dissatisfaction with the finale might be traced to poor performance. My own experience is that I've never heard the finale particularly well sung. Sure, the vocal parts are difficult, but not unsingable by any means; I could sing the bass part myself at a pinch. Also, few conductors are bold enough to take the last Prestissimos at a true, headlong run. (Whether performers should stick to LvB's metronome markings is another potential thread.)

Has anyone heard Opus 130 with the Grosse Fuge in its original place as finale?

Yes, there are a few CDs available which couple Op. 130 and the Fugue, so you can select which finale you want. I believe the Fugue is best as a separate piece.

If the fianle of the ninth is played as a separate piece, I think the opening sections, in which the themes of the first three movements are summed up, should be omitted.

[Roger Newton]

Originally posted by Rod:
Having heard the choral finale played on its own before, I think it loses something in this detachment. I can't see the adagio as a good finale!

I can't really see how the cavatina would make a good finale either, it's too short in any case. Certainly, if not the fugue, another sonata form allegro would be needed to balance the first movement. The replacement finale I would not describe as weak, I think it is an excellent piece. Quartets do not typically know how to treat this movement however, from my experience.

I do think that, if the finale of the ninth is played as a separate movement, the opening section summing up the themes of the first three movements would have to be omitted.

As much as I detest Tchaikovsky for his tawdriness, I think he got it right when he closed the sixth symphony with the slow movement. So if a sloppy, sentimental slow finale like Tchaikovsky's sounds somehow "right," a sublime statement like Beethoven's slow movement sounds perfect.

In a similar vein, I think the "Heiliger Dankgesang" should conclude the A Minor Quartet. What follows diminishes the spiritual power of the work.

[Beyond Within]

concerning the messing with of tempo markings- ive heard two versions of the 9th, the Wilhelm Futhanger and the Walter Bruno. The wilhelm was perfect, but the walter bruno terrible. He sped up the first movement (in comparison with the Wilhelm) and slowed down the second. Which is closer to what beethoven wanted?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Roger Newton:

I do think that, if the finale of the ninth is played as a separate movement, the opening section summing up the themes of the first three movements would have to be omitted.

As much as I detest Tchaikovsky for his tawdriness, I think he got it right when he closed the sixth symphony with the slow movement. So if a sloppy, sentimental slow finale like Tchaikovsky's sounds somehow "right," a sublime statement like Beethoven's slow movement sounds perfect.

In a similar vein, I think the "Heiliger Dankgesang" should conclude the A Minor Quartet. What follows diminishes the spiritual power of the work.[/B]

I get the impression that you would like a slow movement to finish every piece of music! Well, Beethoven's last sonata op111 must be a favourite of yours! However with respect your vision of finales is a little shortsighted. There are structural reasons why Beethoven would follow the Heiliger Dankgesang with the March, considering the finale is a pretty intense piece in itself.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 24, 2003).]

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
concerning the messing with of tempo markings- ive heard two versions of the 9th, the Wilhelm Futhanger and the Walter Bruno. The wilhelm was perfect, but the walter bruno terrible. He sped up the first movement (in comparison with the Wilhelm) and slowed down the second. Which is closer to what beethoven wanted?

That's a hard question. I've heard one Bruno Walter recording (late 1950s with the Columbia Symphony), and although the dynamics, articulation and orchestral sound are all flawless, his tempos in all the movements are just a little on the slow side. I haven't heard the Furtwaengler, but he must have intensified the tempo contrasts, and that's all to the good when doing Beethoven. But very few conductors until recently took the Ninth's tempos at anything like Beethoven's markings except for the scherzo, which has mostly been done at or near the marked 116 to the bar. Conductors with a romantic inclination couldn't be less concerned with metronome markings. And who knows, maybe such freewheeling performances are closer to what Beethoven actually did than a rigid, metronomic reading. (You see where my own preferences lean, and probably yours too since you prefer Furtwaengler, the arch-romantic of conductors.)

[John Rasmussen]

Originally posted by Roger Newton:
I do think that, if the finale of the ninth is played as a separate movement, the opening section summing up the themes of the first three movements would have to be omitted.

As much as I detest Tchaikovsky for his tawdriness, I think he got it right when he closed the sixth symphony with the slow movement. So if a sloppy, sentimental slow finale like Tchaikovsky's sounds somehow "right," a sublime statement like Beethoven's slow movement sounds perfect.

With all due respect, this is an apple/orange situation. Tchaikovsky's Pathetique (which I love, BTW) simply doesn't cover the same spiritual territory that Beethoven's Ninth does, nor did Tchaikovsky intend it to.

Are you familiar with the music of Henryk Gorecki? He likes slow tempos--even challengingly slow ones. Listen especially to his Third Symphony, "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs:" all three movements are divinely slow, and my eyes run over every time I hear it. Arvo Part and Alan Hovhaness are two other recent composers who like slow tempos.

And yes, Rod, I also love LvB's Opus 109 and 111.