Classic or Romantic?

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I have sampled many times the music I critisise, otherwise how could I pass judgement? Thank you for your conciseness.

Rod

Rod,
You say that as if it were a given, however I have learned not to assume it unless stated so. Oh well, I certainly won't follow the example of many others before me and flog a dead horse, so I bid you adieu,
Regards,
Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:

On the contrary, it is these composers who have eliminated themselves!

Rod

That is an odd statement. The composers mentioned above are not catering to anyone's (in particular) taste, but rather attempting to cater to a more general group of people than individuals. Hence the similarities in styles. If I dislike a composer it is not because that composer wrote bad music or that wrote in a style that I dislike for the purpose of displeasing me; it is because I made the choice to dislike the style or composer.

[Poseidan73]

I'm no expert but i'd consider Beethoven classical. What about Schubert?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
That is an odd statement. The composers mentioned above are not catering to anyone's (in particular) taste, but rather attempting to cater to a more general group of people than individuals. Hence the similarities in styles. If I dislike a composer it is not because that composer wrote bad music or that wrote in a style that I dislike for the purpose of displeasing me; it is because I made the choice to dislike the style or composer.

Concerning Romantic music as we generally agree upon, I find the latent emotional and intelectual effect to be irritating. Either sickly sentimental, and/or dramatically naiive or self indulgent - either way unconvincing compared to a natural dramatist like Beethoven. I have found it hard to take even the grandest Romantic composition seriously, especially instrumental music. None could come close to portraying a convincing intrumental rhetoric as Beethoven could as far as I am concerned. For him it was natural, for the other guys it was not. Perhaps that's why I find so much 'serious' Romantic music to be perversely amusing.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Concerning Romantic music as we generally agree upon, I find the latent emotional and intelectual effect to be irritating. Either sickly sentimental, and/or dramatically naiive or self indulgent - either way unconvincing compared to a natural dramatist like Beethoven. I have found it hard to take even the grandest Romantic composition seriously, especially instrumental music. None could come close to portraying a convincing intrumental rhetoric as Beethoven could as far as I am concerned. For him it was natural, for the other guys it was not. Perhaps that's why I find so much 'serious' Romantic music to be perversely amusing.

Since this topic comes up as regularly as the months succeed one another, it would be interesting to know what Romantic art you do like, whether it be literature, painting or whatever else?.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
I'm no expert but i'd consider Beethoven classical. What about Schubert?

From my own reading and listening I would say that Schubert has a fair claim to being among the earliest Romantics, however in his later works he reverts much more nearly to Classical structure and style, I think. One thing that he is noted for is his habit of nearly constant modulation into surprisingly remote keys, which he does so effortlessly that one scarcely notices, and I think this is a hallmark of Romantic music, although I must say that his followers did not do it with nearly the ease and beauty which he did. And where someone asked earlier to name a Romantic who emulated Beethoven, one need scarcely look further, if you indeed will call Schubert a Romantic. I personally think Schubert was brilliant, and I mourn his early passing for the same reason that I do Mozart's, the selfish one of depriving me from hearing what could have been with maturity!

Regards,
Gurn

[Amalie]

"Those composers are exemplars who unite nature and art in their works"

'Said by the Master from Bonn himself'


Clearly from this quote Beethoven was aware of themes that I have been discussing earlier. This is precisely the point that I have been alluding to earlier this discussion.
Would anyone have any doubts?

*************************************
Please note,I have not been referring to romanticism in the vernacular sense, but in the 'generic' sense - certainly not the 'Wuthering Heights' schmuck, which has no appeal to me whatsoever. I mean romanticism in the wider philosophical intellectual deeper sense.



[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 19, 2003).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:
[B]
"Those composers are exemplars who unite nature and art in their works"

'Said by the Master from Bonn himself'


Clearly from this quote Beethoven was aware of themes that I have been discussing earlier. This is precisely the point that I have been alluding to earlier this discussion.
Would anyone have any doubts?

B]

Well, which Romantic composers would you say successfully united art and nature in their output? I am wondering if he had many composers in mind when making this staterment. As I alluded to earlier Handel could easily fit in this category as Beethoven describes it. His pastoral ode 'l'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato' is one of the most profound pieces of music you will ever hear. Gardiner thinks it's his greatest English language work. Here's a link to the libretto:
http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/libretti/allegro.htm

I would be interested to read your impression of this prose Amalie.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 19, 2003).]

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well, which Romantic composers would you say successfully united art and nature in their output? I am wondering if he had many composers in mind when making this staterment. As I alluded to earlier Handel could easily fit in this category as Beethoven describes it. His pastoral ode 'l'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato' is one of the most profound pieces of music you will ever hear. Gardiner thinks it's his greatest English language work. Here's a link to the libretto:
http://opera.stanford.edu/iu/libretti/allegro.htm

I would be interested to read your impression of this prose Amalie.

Thankyou for this link Rod,
I do agree the poetry is very moving and very beautiful.
For better or worse here is my opinion on -

L'ALLEGRO, IL PENSEROSO ED IL MODERATO;
is a stylized view of nature where emotions, melancholy, mirth. Emotions transferred into something capricious with the implication that imagination is frivolous - nature is a kind of well tended garden where human art has transformed what was wildness into something suitable for civilized people, like the pleasure gardens at Vauxhall.
This 18th century idea of nature and imagination is a million miles away from the romantic conception of nature as wild and untamable which man has to submit to, rather that the other way around.
Deeply expressive emotion in music began with Monteverdi and continued through Handel and the operatic tradition and then reached its climax with 'Beethoven', the Ultima Thule of all the most profound human expression.


46. The Final Chorus

Thy pleasures, moderation give,
In them alone we truly live.


Handel's view is the classical view of nature and man as everything in moderation.

Romanticism is linked to tragedy, yearning and death.


I hope others will take the opportunity to read this beautiful work.

[Amalie]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Thankyou for this link Rod,
I do agree the poetry is very moving and very beautiful.
For better or worse here is my opinion on -

L'ALLEGRO, IL PENSEROSO ED IL MODERATO;
is a stylized view of nature where emotions, melancholy, mirth. Emotions transferred into something capricious with the implication that imagination is frivolous - nature is a kind of well tended garden where human art has transformed what was wildness into something suitable for civilized people, like the pleasure gardens at Vauxhall.
This 18th century idea of nature and imagination is a million miles away from the romantic conception of nature as wild and untamable which man has to submit to, rather that the other way around.
Deeply expressive emotion in music began with Monteverdi and continued through Handel and the operatic tradition and then reached its climax with 'Beethoven', the Ultima Thule of all the most profound human expression.


46. The Final Chorus

Thy pleasures, moderation give,
In them alone we truly live.


Handel's view is the classical view of nature and man as everything in moderation.

Romanticism is linked to tragedy, yearning and death.


I hope others will take the opportunity to read this beautiful work.

A contemparory of Beethoven that comes to mind is 'Weber' whose romantic leanings can be seen in the emotional flavour of his music and receptivity to nature and to literary and pictorial impressions.
He died from tuberculosis, age 39.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Amalie:

Thankyou for this link Rod,
I do agree the poetry is very moving and very beautiful.
For better or worse here is my opinion on -

L'ALLEGRO, IL PENSEROSO ED IL MODERATO;
is a stylized view of nature where emotions, melancholy, mirth. Emotions transferred into something capricious with the implication that imagination is frivolous - nature is a kind of well tended garden where human art has transformed what was wildness into something suitable for civilized people, like the pleasure gardens at Vauxhall.
This 18th century idea of nature and imagination is a million miles away from the romantic conception of nature as wild and untamable which man has to submit to, rather that the other way around.
Deeply expressive emotion in music began with Monteverdi and continued through Handel and the operatic tradition and then reached its climax with 'Beethoven', the Ultima Thule of all the most profound human expression.


46. The Final Chorus

Thy pleasures, moderation give,
In them alone we truly live.


Handel's view is the classical view of nature and man as everything in moderation.

Romanticism is linked to tragedy, yearning and death.


I hope others will take the opportunity to read this beautiful work.

Whatever Beethoven thought, I'm not so sure that Beethoven's idea of nature would equate to the Romantic idea of it as you describe above.

Regarding L'Allegro, the text is compiled from two poems by Milton - 'L’Allegro' and 'Il Penseroso' - the 'Moderate' character was a later addition by Jennens. Though no doubt this character was introduced for moral reasons I think there are logical musical reasons for this as there is no 'closure' to the piece otherwise - just two opposite poles.

For more analysis of this piece, check out:
http://www.aam.co.uk/index.htm?main>features/9708.htm

I suspect that Beethoven, a highly moralistic and self-controled person in himself, would have some sympathy with the introduction of the third character, and when one considers this aspect of Beethoven's character, this is why I could never regard Beethoven as a true Romantic.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 19, 2003).]

[stravinsky]

i think Beethoven is a Classical composer with great factors of romanticism.
i think the things he really want is classica.

maybe we could regard him as a revolutioner of classical camp but not a 'New-era' at that time.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Since this topic comes up as regularly as the months succeed one another, it would be interesting to know what Romantic art you do like, whether it be literature, painting or whatever else?.

Well it's not a matter of liking, more a matter of not consciously disliking. Heck if someone gave me a Pre-Raphaelite painting I'd probably get round to hanging it up.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 19, 2003).]

[Amalie]

I am not saying in his personal behaviour that Beethoven resembled Byron.
Beethoven was a deeply moral person as we all know, though 'Auden' in a satirical mood said that Beethoven was simply as trade from a homosexual point of view, which is I am sure, complete nonesense.
Byron was a bisexual athelete, an over sexed dissolute English milord. (Whatever Byron's sexual hangups were, I do admire and enjoy his poetry.)
For all Beethoven's mood swings, he would never have hurt a fly and generally bore no grudges - always the wounded lion.
Byron was a great hater, and when Southey insulted him- he was himself a tough nut -
Byron challenged him to a duel. Byron was a champion boxer and had been taught by the finest pugilist in England - Gentleman John Jackson. Both Byron and Southey would have ended up killing each other if Wordsworth and Coleridge had not intervened.
Coleridge was a great friend of Byron but Wordsword loathed him, and like Beethoven he occupied something of the high moral ground.
My point is that these personal characteristics aside, there is a profound symmetry in Romantic outlook.
Beethoven and Byron both, are the lonely seeking after the truth, either driven in Byron's case, or choosing in Beethoven's case, a mental exile from conventional society. Both of them looked to nature for his healing, even redemptive qualities and both men undoubtedly had turbulent rebellious natures, and both are very much stereotypes of the Romantic movement.
I still maintain that Beethoven was Romantic in spirit.




[This message has been edited by Amalie (edited July 19, 2003).]

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
From my own reading and listening I would say that Schubert has a fair claim to being among the earliest Romantics, however in his later works he reverts much more nearly to Classical structure and style, I think. One thing that he is noted for is his habit of nearly constant modulation into surprisingly remote keys, which he does so effortlessly that one scarcely notices, and I think this is a hallmark of Romantic music, although I must say that his followers did not do it with nearly the ease and beauty which he did. And where someone asked earlier to name a Romantic who emulated Beethoven, one need scarcely look further, if you indeed will call Schubert a Romantic. I personally think Schubert was brilliant, and I mourn his early passing for the same reason that I do Mozart's, the selfish one of depriving me from hearing what could have been with maturity!

Regards,
Gurn

From the things I've played (piano) I am in complete aggreement on this! The orchestral works tend to be more classical, but the songs, the piano pieces, etc. really emulate that which you describe.