Classic or Romantic?

[John Rasmussen]

This may have been discussed to death elsewhere, but perhaps it should be resurrected. Which was Beethoven?

There are valid arguments on both sides, but I would put him in the Romantic camp. He, taking the forms of the old masters, created music with sheer size and power like none before him. He said, "It is a good thing to know the rules in order to know what is contrary to them," but in his music he knew when to follow the rules and when to flout them. And most of the later Romantics acknowledged him as their forebear.

Different opinions? With proofs?

[Peter]

You're right - we have discussed it to death but resurrection is something we all hope for!

I put Beethoven firmly in the Classic camp - the influence he may or may not have had on future generations does not alter the fact that his music was the crowning achievement of classicism. The early Romantics drew their main inspiration from Weber, Sphor, Schubert, Italian opera and the Baroque, and this was in some way a reaction against Beethoven - everyone who claims Beethoven was an early Romantic should recall his own words where he complained that nobody bothered with his music any more as it was out of fashion. The later Romantics were more obviously influenced by the spirit and personality of Beethoven and the heroic and epic proportions of works such as the Eroica and the 9th - but the works themselves are firmly rooted in the classical tradition, with a reliance on form and the tonic-dominant polarity that is fundamental to classical composers.

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'Man know thyself'

[Chris]

Agreed. Classical.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Chris:
Agreed. Classical.

If Romanticism is seen not as a purely musical movement, but as a literary, philosphical and political one as well, I think Beethoven's place in it becomes more apparent. Romanticism was at first literary, and began in Germany in the 1770s with the Sturm and Drang movement. The following is from the Columbia Encyclopedia: "With Sturm und Drang, German authors became cultural leaders of Europe, writing literature that was revolutionary in its stress on subjectivity and on the unease of man in contemporary society. The movement was distinguished also by the intensity with which it developed the theme of youthful genius in rebellion against accepted standards, by its enthusiasm for nature, and by its rejection of the rules of 18th-century neoclassical style. The great figure of the movement was Goethe, who wrote its first major drama, Götz von Berlichingen (1773), and its most sensational and representative novel, The Sorrows of Young Werther (1774). Other writers of importance were Klopstock, J. M. R. Lenz, and Friedrich Müller. The last major figure was Schiller, whose Die Räuber and other early plays were also a prelude to romanticism."

Romanticism was in full literary flower by the 1800, and music was late to the table. The American and French revolutions added fuel to the emotional fire. People could actually feel that change was in the air, and the rights and dignity of man were destined to triumph over the ancient order. Beethoven's so-called "heroic" middle period, beginning more or less with the Eroica symphony, was greatly influenced by the new world-view. He stayed with the classical forms, but expanded them to a heroic scale that was obviously a direct expression of the Romantics'(and Beethoven's) vision of the hero breaking the shackles of fate and repressive government. Only in the narrow sense of sonata and other inherited musical forms is he not a Romantic. In his spirit, he is strongly one.
Compare the 3rd Symphony with anything by Haydn and Mozart, and can you say that Beethoven was not expressing the spirit of his time?

In this forum, the guise of Romanticism is that of a rhapsodizing, overly-sentimental musical form with relatively little discipline. This is only one of its strands, and became more evident later in the 19th century. Earlier on, the movement was idealistic, politically revolutionary, and dedicated to the subjective truths of the individual experience. Beethoven was not only truly a part of all this; I think he can be thought of as its greatest exponent.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If Romanticism is seen not as a purely musical movement, but as a literary, philosphical and political one as well, I think Beethoven's place in it becomes more apparent.

Of course Romanticism as a movement was not confined just to music but has its origins in sturm und drang particularly in literature - composers such as Haydn were however strongly influenced by this and by your definition could be called Romantic as well. However when it is used in the context of defining musical style, then I still say Beethoven belongs in the classical camp for the reasons previously stated - from this perspective, tonal relationships, structure and form are what decide things not ideas about heroism and revolutionary ideals. Beethoven was out of sympathy with the early Romantic school - the music of Sphor, Weber and Rossini was not to his taste, precisely because it challenged classical tonality.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rutradelusasa]

Can't wait to see Rod here...


I don't see Beethoven either as a classical or as a Romantic, Beethoven couldn't be labeled. One time he was doing classical sonatas and in the same opus, a Romantic one, just to return, in the same opus (!) to the classical sphere all over again (Op31).

I think there were the Late-Classics (Weber, Schubert) and Beethoven, the late-classics are also dificult to label (classic or romantic), but you can see wich works can be regarded as Classic (in Schubert for example) and as Romantic, Schubert seemed to have done classical music for a while, started to do Romantic for some other time and finished doing Beethoven-like music. Just look at his symphonies and one Opera (Alfonso und Estrella).

Beethoven was a movement all by himself, he took what Mozart, Haydn, Bach had left of great, combined with what HE had of Great (it all) and created a new page in music, for me, in a Book of music styles, Beethoven has a diferent chapter.

[Joy]

According to my dictionary the Classic era 'dated c. 1750-1825 and lead to the expansiveness of the Romantic period of composition.' Also that 'Beethoven's music was firmly lodged in the Classical spirit, while his last period anticipates Romanticism'. This description may also apply to Schubert.The Romantic era dates from 1815 to 1915 overlapping with late Classic on one end and impressionism and expressionism on the the other. I think Beethoven defintely broke the rules and made Classicism something quite different taking it into another direction. I realize it's difficult to put actual dates on these eras as everyone has a different opinion on when one era started and another ended but this is just a rough meaning.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
According to my dictionary the Classic era 'dated c. 1750-1825 and lead to the expansiveness of the Romantic period of composition.' Also that 'Beethoven's music was firmly lodged in the Classical spirit, while his last period anticipates Romanticism'. This description may also apply to Schubert.The Romantic era dates from 1815 to 1915 overlapping with late Classic on one end and impressionism and expressionism on the the other. I think Beethoven defintely broke the rules and made Classicism something quite different taking it into another direction. I realize it's difficult to put actual dates on these eras as everyone has a different opinion on when one era started and another ended but this is just a rough meaning.

Whatever direction Beethoven took Classisism, it was his own direction, that really led to nowhere. Only Beethoven fully realised the potential of the Classical structures. Nothing that followed is remotely like it. Thus I cannot accept the notion of Beethoven being the gateway to the Romantic era. It does the man an injustice!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Rod:
Whatever direction Beethoven took Classisism, it was his own direction, that really led to nowhere. Only Beethoven fully realised the potential of the Classical structures. Nothing that followed is remotely like it. Thus I cannot accept the notion of Beethoven being the gateway to the Romantic era. It does the man an injustice!

If nothing that followed Beethoven is remotely like the final movement of the 9th Symphony, then I must trade in my ears for a better pair.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If nothing that followed Beethoven is remotely like the final movement of the 9th Symphony, then I must trade in my ears for a better pair.

I suggest you do that. Perhaps you've unknowingly been listening to the Mahler's 'improved' version of the finale?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
If nothing that followed Beethoven is remotely like the final movement of the 9th Symphony, then I must trade in my ears for a better pair.

The fact that later Romantic composers were influenced by the 9th in particular, does not make Beethoven a Romantic composer, anymore than the fact that Palestrina influenced Beethoven makes Palestrina Classical!
I really think people are getting confused with proportion - the fact that the Eroica and the 9th are twice the length of a Mozart Symphony does not make them Romantic. According to the eminent pianist and musicologist charles Rosen 'Beethoven, indeed enlarged the limits of the classical style beyond all previous conceptions, but he never changed its essential structure or abandoned it, as did the composers who followed him. In the other fundamental aspects of his musical language, as well as in the key relations within a single movement, Beethoven may be said to have remained within the classical framework, even while using it in startingly radical and original ways.'

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited October 09, 2002).]

[Sorrano]

In terms of Classicism Beethoven was more classical than the best of them. His understanding and use of the various existing forms demonstrates that clearly. The first movement of the 3rd Symphony is one of the best examples of balancing themes and sections of the Sonata-Allegro form (isn't balance between sameness and otherness the crux of the Classical period?) provided that the repeat is considered.

However, the 7th Symphony contains material that appears to be more dynamic in nature of progressive emotionalism that tends to favor the notion of Romanticism in that an idea is developed dynamically without much thought to form. I do not claim that Beethoven abandoned form to content, but the emotional driving quality of the music is not anything close to that which was experienced prior.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:


However, the 7th Symphony contains material that appears to be more dynamic in nature of progressive emotionalism that tends to favor the notion of Romanticism in that an idea is developed dynamically without much thought to form. I do not claim that Beethoven abandoned form to content, but the emotional driving quality of the music is not anything close to that which was experienced prior.

Was it not Weber, the 'Father of Romantisism' who thought Beethoven was totally mad upon hearing the 7th!?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
Was it not Weber, the 'Father of Romantisism' who thought Beethoven was totally mad upon hearing the 7th!?

And was it not Berlioz that upon hearing the 5th Symphony could not find his head when he went to put on his hat? My point is that what Beethoven did was new. Even with all the subsequent choral symphonies that composers have composed Beethoven's 9th is most unique. The fact that the later Romantics were influenced by Beethoven does not imply that Beethoven was a Romantic. Many textbooks that I've read and used include a separate chapter on Beethoven, between the Classicists and Romanticists. Because of what Classicism is all about (balance and form in music) I am inclined to label Beethoven as the supreme Classicist. And yet his music at the same time implies a program with its dynamic nature (on an emotional side), a keystone of Romanticism.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

The fact that the later Romantics were influenced by Beethoven does not imply that Beethoven was a Romantic. Many textbooks that I've read and used include a separate chapter on Beethoven, between the Classicists and Romanticists. Because of what Classicism is all about (balance and form in music) I am inclined to label Beethoven as the supreme Classicist. And yet his music at the same time implies a program with its dynamic nature (on an emotional side), a keystone of Romanticism.

What Romantic pieces do you know that sound like Beethoven?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin