Hello i am new, and a atempt at a topic.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
On the contrary it was because Haydn wasn't strict enough that Beethoven was not satisfied - Haydn was not a stuffy person either, by all accounts he was a delightful man with an incredibly generous nature.

Well, I certainly stand corrected on that!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Well, I certainly stand corrected on that!

Interesting though that you had that opinion of Haydn - did that come from his reaction to Beethoven's Op.1 trios?

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Yes, I am interested in that too. As I understand it, B sort of lost respect for Haydn because he didn't correct his exercises strictly enough, and let obvious mistakes (e.g. - parallel 5th's) go. THis is actually onyl according to written evidence, there is no telling whether he verbally gave feedback, but nonetheless B ended up with Albrechtsberger learning counterpoint behind Haydn's back. And I have also heard that Haydn was the most genial of men, so like Peter I am interested in the source of your statement, it is always interesting to have contrasting ideas to think about.
Regards,
Gurn

[spaceray]

Hadyn was intimidated by the talented and precocious young Beethoven?Isn't there a Hadyn quote where he calls Beethoven "The Great Mogul"

"Beethoven proved to be a demanding and independent disciple.The master teacher was not equal to the task of training a musician who already knew what he wanted and who,in the final count ,could get it just as well on his own." this from Philippe A Autexier's
"Beethoven the Composer as Hero.

[SR]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I have to agree with your sentiments here. I've always been under the impression that Mozart was more of a late bloomer in terms of composition than some of his peers. Since he spent his earlier years more focused on performance he had some catching up to do with theory and counterpoint (which he certainly did do). I'm not sure how good of an instructor he might have been; I think Haydn was superior in that respect. Also, Haydn had a much more solid foundation in music theory than Mozart. While his music may not be as melodious or seem as natural as Mozart's I think you'll find it more solid in terms of harmony and construction.

Boy are you demanding. Late bloomer ? Composing at 4, Operas by 12 is a late bloomer ? I don't think you'd find a musician that would concur that Mozart didn't have a solid understanding of harmony.

Steve

[lysander]

During his year of study with Haydn, Beethoven worked out about 300 exercises
in simple counterpoint, and the manuscripts of 245 of them are in the Gesellschaft der Musicfreunde in Vienna.
Using his own condensed version of Joseph Fux's famous Gradus ad Parnassum, Haydn corrected 42 of the exercises in his own hand, but Nottenbohm discovered that five times this number remained uncorrected, so that "Beethoven objected that he was not able to make any progress with Haydn because the latter, far too busy, was not capable of giving the necessary attention to the exercises presented to him.
However, Alfred Mann concluded that Haydn's entries were systematically directed to a particular choice of problems.
Beethoven wanted counterpoint-lessons, but Haydn did not like the academic exercises very much. Beethoven then took secret counterpoint-lessons from Johan Schenk.

Recent scholars have shed new light on the complex, often veiled antagonism between Beethoven and Haydn. Especially around 1800, Beethoven felt stifled by Haydn's influence, which was restricting "the growth of his own musical individuality".
Through a lack of trust he was unable to adopt a submissive attitude to Haydn, who stood in his way like "one more father to
be defied or circumvented".
Landon wrote of their "Mutual distrust which was to take on extremely nasty overtones".
After an erudite critical review of the sources, James Webster concluded that although the tradition had been exaggerated by 19th century biographers, there was indeed good evidence that at least between 1800 and 1804, the relationship between Haydn and Beethoven "was marred by mutual distrust and feelings of ambivalence.
In summary, he wrote:

Haydn was strong-minded, jealous of his stature as the greatest living composer, and proud of his pupil; Beethoven was not only strong-willed but paranoid, desrespectful of authority, eager to supplant Haydn as greatest living composer and perhaps frustrated by Haydn's continual forestalling of this event through the production of new masterworks.

Similar suspicion and mistrust constrained his relationship with Albrechtsberger, whom, like Haydn, he regarded with ambivalence. While he would not publicly acknowledge his great teachers, Beethoven sometimes admitted in private conversation that without Haydn and Albrechtsberger "he would have commited many follies".


Not only were the scores of at least two of Haydn's masses (Nelson and Heiligmess) in Beethoven's library, but he used the Gloria of Haydn's 'Schopfungsmesse' as a model for his first setting of his Mass in C major, Opus 86.


Beethoven's favourite composers were Haydn, Handel, Mozart, J.S. Bach, Gluck, and Cherubini. He also expressed his admiration for C.P.E. Bach, and Palestrina, and was quick to recongnize the "divine spark" in Schubert's songs. While he was openly critical of Spohr and Meyerbeer.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 26, 2003).]

[Beyond Within]

My dad told me some story, im not sure how true it is (my dad is crazy) that critics were insulting Rossini and calling him a cheap ripoff of Beethoven, and beethoven in response said that he would "give all 9" to have written a certian Rossini piece (I dont remember which). Do you guys know about this?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
My dad told me some story, im not sure how true it is (my dad is crazy) that critics were insulting Rossini and calling him a cheap ripoff of Beethoven, and beethoven in response said that he would "give all 9" to have written a certian Rossini piece (I dont remember which). Do you guys know about this?

I've never heard this story before! Perhaps you are right about your dad!!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by SR:
Boy are you demanding. Late bloomer ? Composing at 4, Operas by 12 is a late bloomer ? I don't think you'd find a musician that would concur that Mozart didn't have a solid understanding of harmony.

Steve

Remember that Mozart's major focus in his earlier years was with performance, lesser focus was with composition. When he was no longer the wunderkind he had some catching up to do with the music theory. There is no question in my mind that he had a good grasp of the fundamentals, but when I listen to his earlier works (or play them on the piano) all I see are works that are fundamentally sound, not great. But after he reaches physical maturity and has had a chance to focus more on the compositional side I see a jump from mediocrity to greatness. (Perhaps I exaggerate a bit, but that is my perspective.)

[Sorrano]

Thanks, Lysander, for that bit on Beethoven and Haydn. That helps set straight my own concept of their relationship.

[SR]

Serrano...

>>>Remember that Mozart's major focus in his earlier years was with performance, lesser focus was with composition<<<<<

This is an incorrect statement. Mozart was continuously writing from age 4. "Amadeus", and the layman view may be as you describe but keep in mind that for every hour he performed in front of Kings and Queens he was in inns and on the road for weeks. When Leopold, Nannerl, and Wolfgang arrived in town they often waited days or weeks to get the royal audience. His father carried a Clavicin with them, and he spent the majority of that waiting time writing music. I find many of the childhood works to be stunning compositions. Not just great for a ten year old, but great for anyone.

Mozart as well as nearly all composers improved with practice and maturity. My opinion is that he matured much faster in his composition of vocal and liturgical pieces, rather than instrumental. If you havn't heard them you might want to pick up a couple of the early masses and operas.

Mozart was as far from a late bloomer as it is possible to be.


Regards

Steve

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by SR:
Serrano...

>>>Remember that Mozart's major focus in his earlier years was with performance, lesser focus was with composition<<<<<

This is an incorrect statement. Mozart was continuously writing from age 4. "Amadeus", and the layman view may be as you describe but keep in mind that for every hour he performed in front of Kings and Queens he was in inns and on the road for weeks. When Leopold, Nannerl, and Wolfgang arrived in town they often waited days or weeks to get the royal audience. His father carried a Clavicin with them, and he spent the majority of that waiting time writing music. I find many of the childhood works to be stunning compositions. Not just great for a ten year old, but great for anyone.

Mozart as well as nearly all composers improved with practice and maturity. My opinion is that he matured much faster in his composition of vocal and liturgical pieces, rather than instrumental. If you havn't heard them you might want to pick up a couple of the early masses and operas.

Mozart was as far from a late bloomer as it is possible to be.


Regards

Steve

Steve,
While Sorrano and I are nearly always on the same wavelength (no insult intended Sorrano), in this case I am totally in agreement with what you say here. Young Mozart was brilliant from the start, and when comparing some of his early sonatas for example, like those of K 6 - 15 with his contemporaries such as "the London" Bach, they are the equal. The difference is that WAM was only 9-10 years old and Bach was a mature man!! And so as not to leave out Beethoven in this setting, I might add that the Electoral Sonatas WoO 47, written when he was 11-12 are very fine works also, and the long ago decision to not count them among the 32 has no justification whatsoever.
Regards,
Gurn

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Steve,
While Sorrano and I are nearly always on the same wavelength (no insult intended Sorrano), in this case I am totally in agreement with what you say here. Young Mozart was brilliant from the start, and when comparing some of his early sonatas for example, like those of K 6 - 15 with his contemporaries such as "the London" Bach, they are the equal. The difference is that WAM was only 9-10 years old and Bach was a mature man!! And so as not to leave out Beethoven in this setting, I might add that the Electoral Sonatas WoO 47, written when he was 11-12 are very fine works also, and the long ago decision to not count them among the 32 has no justification whatsoever.
Regards,
Gurn

I must be corrected here. In respect to chamber music and piano music I find I am in error here. However, (and this is my great weakness in this discussion) my view (unfortunately) was stuck on orchestral music. The early symphonies are not at all remarkable, except that they were composed by a youngster. (I have to stop judging composers on orchestral output only!)

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I must be corrected here. In respect to chamber music and piano music I find I am in error here. However, (and this is my great weakness in this discussion) my view (unfortunately) was stuck on orchestral music. The early symphonies are not at all remarkable, except that they were composed by a youngster. (I have to stop judging composers on orchestral output only!)

And I, of course, am equally guilty in the opposite direction, as the orchestral works of most composers are the last things I turn to after wearing out the sonatas and chamber works. I guess we all have our interests and tend to view things from their perspective.
Regards,
Gurn

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
I might add that the Electoral Sonatas WoO 47, written when he was 11-12 are very fine works also, and the long ago decision to not count them among the 32 has no justification whatsoever.
Regards,
Gurn

Have you heard Beethovens 3 piano quartets (WoO.36) from 1784? These are really excellent pieces that show for the first time the full package of Beethovenian elements all in place.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited July 05, 2003).]