Hello i am new, and a atempt at a topic.

[mrfixit]

I registered at this forum a week ago or so, and i have really enjoyed what you lot have had to say. Anyway i have been listening to some mozart last night, and i couldnt help but wonder if he lived longer how he would of reacted to Beethovens music? What i mean is would it of changed the way he composed or would he of stuck to composing his and developing his own style of classical music?

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The 9th symphony is the second greatest peice of music off all time. The first is the birdy song.

[Rod]

A very difficult question that I'm sure many people have pondered. We've discussed it here before. One could look at Haydn's example, he just got on with his own musical business regardless of Beethoven as far as I'm aware. Vienna's musical society did not stand or fall on Beethoven alone.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[mrfixit]

Hey thanks for replying. Well as far as i know Beethoven and Hydan had a falling out so he most likely didnt pay attention to what Beethoven was doing. (I could be wrong i guess) Anyway i supose i am asking it this question becuase even though i like Beethoven better than Mozart is it really fair to compare due to the simple fact that Mozart Died a lot Younger Than Beethoven. How would Beethoven compare to Mozart if he died at the same age. Anyway sorry for rambling on.

[Rod]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Hey thanks for replying. Well as far as i know Beethoven and Hydan had a falling out so he most likely didnt pay attention to what Beethoven was doing. (I could be wrong i guess) Anyway i supose i am asking it this question becuase even though i like Beethoven better than Mozart is it really fair to compare due to the simple fact that Mozart Died a lot Younger Than Beethoven. How would Beethoven compare to Mozart if he died at the same age. Anyway sorry for rambling on.

Well there was always a kind of uncertainty in the relationship between Beethoven and Haydn, though ultimately Beethoven always had respect for the older man. Concerning Mozart, we have discussed this point many times also. My position has always been, for all Mozart's youthfull genius, I believe Beethoven had a better command of musical form and structure than Mozart at the same age. Even Beethoven's early works are as solid and secure as granite. You get this from no other composer from this time or after my humble opinion. Considering the quality and invention of the music Beethoven wrote up to the age Mozart died, I suggest the best of it is at least as good as the best of Mozart's comparable works. I would not naturally make an issue of this but I believe early Beethoven has always been underrated in relation to Mozart. There you have it.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited June 25, 2003).]

[SR]

I think the two men would have influenced each other. For one thing Beethoven would have studied piano and probably composition with Mozart. He did set out to do that, but it never happened. That alone would I think have been a major influence on Beethoven. I also believe as Mozart's student developed he would have driven Mozart to greater accomplishment in an effort to stay ahead in the Vienna music scene.

There is an essay I read regarding Lichnowsky and his sponsorship of Beethoven. It was discovered only a few years ago that Mozart was sued by Lichnowsky and lost a sum of I believe 1600 gulden, which amounted to 2 years salary for Mozart. This judgement came only months before Mozarts death. Records of the reason for that judgement are gone, at least for now. Speculation is that it had to do with gambling losses.

The essay author theorized that the worry and overwork it caused was a primary factor in Mozarts early death. Lichnowsky dropped the suit on Mozarts death and did not attempt collection from the widow Constanze.
The essay goes on to detail several instances of very rude boorish insulting behavior by Beethoven directed towards his sponsor Lichnowsky. There is no way Lichnowsky should have put up with Beethovens antics yet he did. The author speculating that it was out of guilt at feeling he had caused the death of Mozart.
Beethoven's career could have been different without Lichnowsky.

We are very lucky to have had a Mozart and a Beethoven. It is sad that we didn't get to have then co-exist for awhile. I think it could have been spectacular.

Regards

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
I think the two men would have influenced each other. For one thing Beethoven would have studied piano and probably composition with Mozart...

In a way I'm glad Beethoven never studied under Mozart. Clearly Mozart was Beethoven's idol in those days perhaps the extreme closeness between the two that would have ensued would have robbed Beethoven of part if his musical individuality as we know it today. But I agree that a more direct rivalry between B and Mozart would have developed than appears to have been the case with Haydn.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[mrfixit]

Thanks for replying i find almost every single post here fascinating to read. All i can add is i just got a hunch that Mozart would be less conservative that Hydan and Embrace Beethoven advancement of music, but i could be totaly wrong of course. I supose Beethovens early work might get underated as i do like his early symphonys better than Mozarts later ones, but that could simply be due to the fact Beethoven composed less.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Rod:
In a way I'm glad Beethoven never studied under Mozart. Clearly Mozart was Beethoven's idol in those days perhaps the extreme closeness between the two that would have ensued would have robbed Beethoven of part if his musical individuality as we know it today. But I agree that a more direct rivalry between B and Mozart would have developed than appears to have been the case with Haydn.

I have to agree with your sentiments here. I've always been under the impression that Mozart was more of a late bloomer in terms of composition than some of his peers. Since he spent his earlier years more focused on performance he had some catching up to do with theory and counterpoint (which he certainly did do). I'm not sure how good of an instructor he might have been; I think Haydn was superior in that respect. Also, Haydn had a much more solid foundation in music theory than Mozart. While his music may not be as melodious or seem as natural as Mozart's I think you'll find it more solid in terms of harmony and construction.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

I'm not sure how good of an instructor he might have been; I think Haydn was superior in that respect.

Well Beethoven didn't think much of Haydn's teaching which is why he went elsewhere to Schenk and Albrechtsberger!

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'Man know thyself'

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
Thanks for replying i find almost every single post here fascinating to read. All i can add is i just got a hunch that Mozart would be less conservative that Hydan and Embrace Beethoven advancement of music, but i could be totaly wrong of course. I supose Beethovens early work might get underated as i do like his early symphonys better than Mozarts later ones, but that could simply be due to the fact Beethoven composed less.

To me, Mozart's last two symphonies (Nos. 40 and 41) are anything but conservative, and strike out boldly into new ground. The tragic depth of the first movement of No. 40 is clearly a new level for the composer. And the fugal final movement of No. 41 ("Jupiter"), is I think one of the greatest things in the whole history of music. It shows that even without Beethoven's challenge, Mozart's developing genius would have given him plenty of new territory to stake out.

The list of great artists, writers and composers who died in their thirties (or even earlier) is a long one, but perhaps the one most to be regretted is Mozart.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited June 25, 2003).]

[SR]

Originally posted by Rod:
In a way I'm glad Beethoven never studied under Mozart. Clearly Mozart was Beethoven's idol in those days perhaps the extreme closeness between the two that would have ensued would have robbed Beethoven of part if his musical individuality as we know it today.

Well we'll certainly never know. I think the rivalry (friendly or otherwise) would have made both men better. Insert life philosophy here....

"Everything happens just as it is supposed to"

Regards

Steve

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
To me, Mozart's last two symphonies (Nos. 40 and 41) are anything but conservative, and strike out boldly into new ground. The tragic depth of the first movement of No. 40 is clearly a new level for the composer. And the fugal final movement of No. 41 ("Jupiter"), is I think one of the greatest things in the whole history of music. It shows that even without Beethoven's challenge, Mozart's developing genius would have given him plenty of new territory to stake out.

The list of great artists, writers and composers who died in their thirties is a long one, but perhaps the one most to be regretted is Mozart.

Chaszz,
You are oh so right, IMHO. I find that those who think that even if Mozart had lived longer he would have just written more of the same are tragically failing to take into account that his music perceptibly changed on a piece by piece basis throughout his entire career, and there is no reason at all to think that he would not have continued to "stake out new ground". And indeed, there was certainly enough room for two such masters at the same time, hell, there was enough room for hundreds of mediocre composers, why not two great ones?
Regards,
Gurn

[Peter]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
And indeed, there was certainly enough room for two such masters at the same time, hell, there was enough room for hundreds of mediocre composers, why not two great ones?
Regards,
Gurn

Absolutely and we had that with Bach and Handel - both coexisted without rivalry and without much influencing the other, might not the same have been possible with Beethoven and Mozart? I suppose living in the same city would have been interesting!

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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Beethoven didn't think much of Haydn's teaching which is why he went elsewhere to Schenk and Albrechtsberger!

I imagine that Haydn was a bit stuffy for him and perhaps too strict. As I recall Beethoven's father used to punish him for trying to compose instead of practicing. I don't think that Beethoven could well have been confined to any rigorous set of rules and methods.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
I imagine that Haydn was a bit stuffy for him and perhaps too strict. As I recall Beethoven's father used to punish him for trying to compose instead of practicing. I don't think that Beethoven could well have been confined to any rigorous set of rules and methods.

On the contrary it was because Haydn wasn't strict enough that Beethoven was not satisfied - Haydn was not a stuffy person either, by all accounts he was a delightful man with an incredibly generous nature.

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'Man know thyself'