the cliche that "music is math"

[Beyond Within]

The more I learn about music, the less and less true this is to me. The interval structure is "counting" but beyond that there is nothing similar. Even that doesnt hold much for the math argument because back in the day (as in, less than 200 years ago) they didnt even have names for all that, this label system is farly new. Back then people just heard the notes and knew what the note was; they didnt know what they heard was a "perfect fourth". Also the tests where people do better at math if they listen to classical is not a valid argument because people do better at ANY mind activity they are engaged in while listening to classical music. Which is mostly due to the complex harmonic structures going on, which gets the mind "warmed up". Tests showed that reading ability increased as well. Music knowledge just increases your entire minds ability, as does any new knowledge or system of knowledge (algebra, spanish, programming ect.).

If this were true it would make no sense that musical savants, with extreme mental disability (they have no capacity to learn even basic algebra) can hear a piece of music and play it flawlessly on the piano; having no previous musical training.

Compositionally I think it comes down to creativity and accumulated musical knowledge. I dont see a correlation between math and creativity.

the source for the tests and harmonic structure information is in the book "Music, the Brain, and Ecstacy" (he disproves the music/math bond). It also has various cases of music savants. Its a very intresting read.

[This message has been edited by Beyond Within (edited June 26, 2003).]

[Peter]

Interesting of course that Beethoven was hopeless at maths!

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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

Beethoven's slow progress at maths at school was not the consequence of a diminished order of intelligence. Rather it was a reflection of his inability at that time to concentrate and apply himself to the monotonous task of learning.
Dr. W.C. Muller described him as "a shy and taciturn boy, the necessary consequence of the life apart which he led, observing more and pondering more than he spoke, and disposed to abandon himself entirely to the feelings awakended by music and later by poetry".

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I remember myself at school being bored out of my skull with maths, which I now of course regret to this day!




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 27, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by lysander:

Beethoven's slow progress at maths at school was not the consequence of a diminished order of intelligence. Rather it was a reflection of his inability at that time to concentrate and apply himself to the monotonous task of learning.
Dr. W.C. Muller described him as "a shy and taciturn boy, the necessary consequence of the life apart which he led, observing more and pondering more than he spoke, and disposed to abandon himself entirely to the feelings awakended by music and later by poetry".

********
I remember myself at school being bored out of my skull with maths, which I now of course regret to this day!


[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 27, 2003).]

I wasn't suggesting he had a diminished intellect! However it is possible to excel in one area whilst having little aptitude in another. The best physics or chemistry teacher in the world would have found me a hopeless case!

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

I have bad news for you, Beyond Within:
Music is all mathematical.
The good news is, we don't have to understand it in order to be good musicians or good listeners.
The organizing of music into perfect fourths and so on is far more than arbitrary labeling. As far back as Pythagorus the mathematical nature of music has been known. Tuning a piano is an exercise in mathematics. You need to know all about the mathematical relationships between overtones, etc. There are books on the physics of sound that make it clear how dizzyingly mathematical it all is.
The nature of music is mathematical, but we don't need to understand it.
Many great athletes and dancers don't need to understand the science of the human body to do well in their field (though more and more do).
I agree that Beethoven must have been a very intelligent person. His poor performance in math would nowadays be attributed to a disfunctional family life.

[Sorrano]

I have been told by some IT people that often many people in that industry have a keen interest in music. That is certainly the case with me, as I studied music then later went into the IT profession. If there is a direct correlation I do not know what it is, except that the construction of music (knowledge of form, harmonic progressions, balance, etc.) has similarities to programming computer programs. There is also an artistic approach (obviously to music) to both. Like Lysander, I have regrets today about not doing more with math at an earlier age. I think it would have helped with my own musical projects as much as it would in my profession.

[Beyond Within]

what I meant was from the artistic level of using the notes and such to make good music/perform. I didnt mean the LITERAL structure of the sound. In that case everything is math and physics, since its all quarks, electrons and so forth onto infinity.

[urtextmeister]

BW,
I understand your point. Saying that music is mathematical is like saying painting is all about the the chemical components of a tube of oil paint. It's not. But it is part of it...
I believe there are mathematical elements involved in music at every level, however. Look at Bach's Art of Fugue, for instance. He displays his mastery of contrapuntal music by composing long subjects that appear backwards, upside-down, etc., with itself. There must be a certain amount of math involved it that process. Look at the serialists for that matter. A tone-row with all of it's various configurations feels a lot like math to me.
What's the most basic phrase length in classical music? 8 bars. It can usually be broken down into two parts--4 and 4. How long is your average pop song? 32 bars. Hmm. 4 X 8. How do present a theme in augmentation? Increase the duration of every note by a certain percentage--one and half times itself, two times itself...
I could go on. Working with midi and notation software at a computer can become very mathematical. I have a way of making a crescendo with my music notation software that looks an awful lot like a graph with an x and y axis.
Music can be approached as purely from the heart or from the gut. But it can also be approached as a mathematical endeavor. That is the wonder of it.
By the way, I was terrible at math and always resented the fact that I was only allowed to come up with one answer.

[Chris]

Music is, I would say, all math, but you don't actually need to be aware of any of it (or most of it, anyway) to make music, so it really doesn't matter all that much.

[SR]

I've never really understood the oft mentioned relationship either. While harmonic and rhythmic relationships can be expressed mathmatically, that is not how a musician approaches them. I started piano as a six year old, dropped it at 13. I entered Jr and Sr high band and orchestra. I majored in music and played French Horn professionally for a couple years. I dropped out and now work as a sound engineer, the sterotype musician turned technician. In school I took Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Trig/Calculus. They were fairly easy but no fun at all, hated it. Loved music. I have never approached music listening or playing with a formula in mind and have never balanced a checkbook with a song in my heart.
Mozart was a great at math, Beethoven was bad. I can't see any correlation to their ability to compose.

BTW I now play piano again, but just for fun, family, and friends.

Regards

Steve

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by SR:
I've never really understood the oft mentioned relationship either. While harmonic and rhythmic relationships can be expressed mathmatically, that is not how a musician approaches them. I started piano as a six year old, dropped it at 13. I entered Jr and Sr high band and orchestra. I majored in music and played French Horn professionally for a couple years. I dropped out and now work as a sound engineer, the sterotype musician turned technician. In school I took Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Trig/Calculus. They were fairly easy but no fun at all, hated it. Loved music. I have never approached music listening or playing with a formula in mind and have never balanced a checkbook with a song in my heart.
Mozart was a great at math, Beethoven was bad. I can't see any correlation to their ability to compose.

BTW I now play piano again, but just for fun, family, and friends.

Regards

Steve

For a performer it is not as necessary (if at all) to understand the mathematical relationships. But as a composer it is imperative to at least have a basic understanding which concerns rhythm, meter, interval relationships, harmonic progressions, etc. Harmonic progression is often integrally a part of the rhythmic flow and while one does not necessarily compute mathematical equations there is a degree of mathematical properties. As a performer math becomes a necessity when performing some of the 20th Century works as the meter is often mathematically complicated (Bartok, for example).