The First symphony

[SR]

No, not Beethovens, but the very first. I'd like to find a book on symphonic evolution. Who wrote the very first piece of music which was called a symphony ? When ? Was it called a symphony at it's premiere ?
How many movements ? Who first changed it from 3 to 4 movements ? I know that was during Mozarts life, but was he first ? Did it start as two ? Why was a dance movement standard ? I think it was Beethoven who moved from Minuet to Scherzo, but was he the first ? Which symphony was the first to be thought a draw on a concert ticket vs. just filler material between soloists ?

Regards

Steve

[lysander]

Papa Haydn!
Known as the Father of the Symphony, helped establish the forms of the string quartet and the Symphony. He saw both genres from their beginnings to a high level of sophistication and artistic expression, even if he did not originate them.
He brought them to new intellectual weight.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 26, 2003).]

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by SR:
No, not Beethovens, but the very first. I'd like to find a book on symphonic evolution. Who wrote the very first piece of music which was called a symphony ? When ? Was it called a symphony at it's premiere ?
How many movements ? Who first changed it from 3 to 4 movements ? I know that was during Mozarts life, but was he first ? Did it start as two ? Why was a dance movement standard ? I think it was Beethoven who moved from Minuet to Scherzo, but was he the first ? Which symphony was the first to be thought a draw on a concert ticket vs. just filler material between soloists ?

Regards

Steve

Steve,
I don't have the answer, but I do have a CD of 12 String Symphonies (yes, they are called symphonies, not overtures or anything) dating from approx. 1720 and written by Antonio Vivaldi. I doubt that he invented them, but they are a very pleasant listen. Perhaps we need to look to Italy for the answer here. Now I am curious myself, so I shall do some research. Thanks,
Regards,
Gurn

[lysander]

SR.

For further interesting information, you may like to view this extremely informative site on the earliest symphonies.
A most fascinating subject!

http://ubmail.ubalt.edu/~pfitz/play/ref/symphony.htm

Or try, OCM Symphony

Hope this works, I am not very good at these things!

Regards
Lysander



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 26, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by SR:
No, not Beethovens, but the very first. I'd like to find a book on symphonic evolution. Who wrote the very first piece of music which was called a symphony ? When ? Was it called a symphony at it's premiere ?
How many movements ? Who first changed it from 3 to 4 movements ? I know that was during Mozarts life, but was he first ? Did it start as two ? Why was a dance movement standard ? I think it was Beethoven who moved from Minuet to Scherzo, but was he the first ? Which symphony was the first to be thought a draw on a concert ticket vs. just filler material between soloists ?

Regards

Steve

Long accepted as the contender for first symphony in the 4 movement form we know is G.B.Monn's symphony in D dated 24th May 1740 scored for 2 flutes, 2 horns, basson and strings.
There are 2 other possibilities but perhaps the term is being used too widely as I don't know these works - 1724 Sinfonia in 4 movements by Alberto Gallo. Even earlier is a symphony dated 1692 in 4 movements by Gioseffo Placuzzi scored for lute, 2 violins and harpsichord.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by lysander:

For further interesting information, you may like to view this extremely informative site on the earliest symphonies.
A most fascinating subject!
http://ubmail.ubalt.edu/~pfitz/play/ref/symphony.htm
.]

Lysander,
Thanks, very interesting stuff.
Regards,
Gurn

[lysander]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Lysander,
Thanks, very interesting stuff.
Regards,
Gurn

I have often pondered over the same questions that SR is searching for, but
never seem to have the time to read up on the subject. Now that my interest has been re-kindled, I must make more of an effort.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 26, 2003).]

[Beyond Within]

I found this kind of depressing, only because how true it seems:

"Weingartner has, with astonishment, called attention to the fact that a mere six decades lie between the composition of Haydn’s earliest symphony and Beethoven’s latest-’the transformation of a gay pastime into a sublime tragedy’. Since I8Z4, when the latter work was written, nobody has expressed deeper emotion by means of music – and probably nobody ever will. Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony remains the apogee of the orchestral art. "

The idea of individuallity is astonishingly true, we cycle through billions of people every century, and only one Beethoven has existed. Its as profound as it is annoying!

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by SR:
No, not Beethovens, but the very first. I'd like to find a book on symphonic evolution. Who wrote the very first piece of music which was called a symphony ? When ? Was it called a symphony at it's premiere ?
How many movements ? Who first changed it from 3 to 4 movements ? I know that was during Mozarts life, but was he first ? Did it start as two ? Why was a dance movement standard ? I think it was Beethoven who moved from Minuet to Scherzo, but was he the first ? Which symphony was the first to be thought a draw on a concert ticket vs. just filler material between soloists ?

Regards

Steve

Check out Sammartini and the sons of J S Bach, particularly C P E and J C Bach. Not sure if they predate Haydn. There is another composer from the Mannheim school, but I cannot remember his name. He was contemporary with the ones I named above.

[mrfixit]

If i rember right the from of the symphony evoled from two movement court dance music? I faintly rember watching a progame about the histroy of music a few years back. I will go a look stuff up on the internet and see if i can come up with any info.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
If i rember right the from of the symphony evoled from two movement court dance music? I faintly rember watching a progame about the histroy of music a few years back. I will go a look stuff up on the internet and see if i can come up with any info.

I'd always understood that it came from the Italian overtures which consisted of fast-slow-fast sections. But then, again, it more than likely developed from several nationalities at the same time.