After the 9th, what is there?

[Beyond Within]

Does anything top this? Ive been listening to a lot of classical lately and nothing even comes close to the first movement of this symphony. In terms of unity and purpose everything else either has seams showing, or isnt even close in scope or power. After this its all childs play in comparison.

Brahms fourth symphony is amazing, as is Tchiachovsky's last two, but is anything as crazy as beethovens 9th? And I mean something beautiful and moving, not just complex and thick for the sake of it.

[chopithoven]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
Does anything top this? Ive been listening to a lot of classical lately and nothing even comes close to the first movement of this symphony. In terms of unity and purpose everything else either has seams showing, or isnt even close in scope or power. After this its all childs play in comparison.

Brahms fourth symphony is amazing, as is Tchiachovsky's last two, but is anything as crazy as beethovens 9th? And I mean something beautiful and moving, not just complex and thick for the sake of it.

Try Brahms' 1st, which is practically an hommage to Beethoven.

[Peter]

How about Schubert's 9th which is almost contemporary with B's 9th and both are on a massive scale.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
How about Schubert's 9th which is almost contemporary with B's 9th and both are on a massive scale.

In light of the original posters opening question, are you suggesting Schubert's 9th 'tops' Beethoven's?

Perhaps the only answer could be Beethoven's 10th!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited June 24, 2003).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
In light of the original posters opening question, as you suggesting Schubert's 9th 'tops' Beethoven's?

Perhaps the only answer could be Beethoven's 10th!

No you're right I didn't mean to imply that - I was thinking of great symphonies that came after B's 9th and on this point we are bound to disagree!

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
No you're right I didn't mean to imply that - I was thinking of great symphonies that came after B's 9th and on this point we are bound to disagree!

Fair enough. Of course you are correct in you final assertion - for me the terms "great symphonies" and "after B's 9th" are utterly contradictory.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[urtextmeister]

Here we go again with the difficult comparisons. For me, comparing Beethoven symphonies with those of Brahms and Schubert is like choosing between my wife and my mother. Who do I love more?
Umm...
My advice for Beyond Within (gotta love that name--of course who am I to talk): After Beethovens 9th proceed directly to Mahler. Do not pass Schubert. Do collect $200.
If what attracts you to B's 9th is the complexity and contradictions and trying to cram a whole world of elements into one piece, then that is my advice.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Here we go again with the difficult comparisons. For me, comparing Beethoven symphonies with those of Brahms and Schubert is like choosing between my wife and my mother. Who do I love more?
Umm...
My advice for Beyond Within (gotta love that name--of course who am I to talk): After Beethovens 9th proceed directly to Mahler. Do not pass Schubert. Do collect $200.
If what attracts you to B's 9th is the complexity and contradictions and trying to cram a whole world of elements into one piece, then that is my advice.

Hey! Don't forget Bruckner!

[Poseidan73]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
After Beethovens 9th proceed directly to Mahler. Do not pass Schubert. Do collect $200.

Go straight to Mahler via Schubert? I don't understand.

[SR]

Originally posted by Poseidan73:
Go straight to Mahler via Schubert? I don't understand.

I think he means he doesn't find Schubert to be impressive. I agree with him about the Mahler. I've always thought Mahlers 1st was the greatest symphony post Beethoven. Does it top B's 9th ? I could see where some would think so, I'm not sure myself.

Regards

Steve

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
I think he means he doesn't find Schubert to be impressive. I agree with him about the Mahler. I've always thought Mahlers 1st was the greatest symphony post Beethoven. Does it top B's 9th ? I could see where some would think so, I'm not sure myself.

Regards

Steve

Mahler tops B's 9th??!! I sometimes feel the level of self indulgence and crude melodrama in some of Mahler's symphonies to be verging on the comical. In all honesty I have laughed at these works on occasion. My mother's current husband (Opus3) heard a movement from a Mahler symphony on TV that encouraged him to buy the complete set on CD. Upon his hearing the other music the set has gathered a lot of dust.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited June 25, 2003).]

[urtextmeister]

First let me say: I love Schubert. That was not my point. I was just making the suggestion that in my opinion, Mahler was one of the best at taking up where Beethoven left off--trying to answer the big question.
Rod, I agree completely. Mahler is laughable. I tend to see it more as irony, but nevertheless...
However, I find a lot of crude humor in Beethoven. The musical equivalent of pratfalls sometimes. There are usually a few good laughs in any given tragedy by Shakespeare as well.

[Beyond Within]

thanks guys.

I bought Schuberts 9th, its childs play next to beethovens 9th. However, after hearing beethovens 9th hundreds of times (in fact, I memorized the first movement in order to listen to it whenever I want, took me 9 hours to get all the dynamics, timing, ect. everything right) I forced myself to always have really low expectations when it comes to structure, unity, and daring in a symphony. That said I am grateful for the suggestion and very much enjoy this symphony. The opening call was very good, in fact I thought the 9th may have an equal. Ofcourse when taken as whole its nothing next to Beethoven. To clarify what I like MOST is this: I want the symphony to be unpredictable,to startle me and get my attention. Beethoven wasnt afraid to be innovative within a musical context (i like creativity which enhances the music, not just creativity for the sake of creativity ie having random whole tone and chromatic passages just because you can do it). I also need emotional impact. To me everything else is a means to THOSE ends.


About music being laughable, when you think about it the act of listening to music is very lame and illogical as to WHY it makes us ecstatic. My view is: who cares? Its all about enjoyment anyway!

You guys were throwing around a few other names, please tell me the exact symphonies and composers which correspond. I will buy as soon as possible.

I am new here, I am also new to classical. For the past 2 years I was obsessed with Metal (my name is from a Nevermore song). I liked metal because it was always interesting, creative, melodic, and agressive. Its very similar to classical if you listen to the right music. harmonically its nowhere close to classical, but otherwise it can come close to being as good.

I have only within the past 6 months gotten into classical. I am a musician and I have very demanding standards which get higher and higher everyday. The only piece of music I ever heard which I consider flawless is the first movement of B's 9th. So keep that in mind! I love this stuff and buy 3-4 albums a week, so keep suggesting, I appreciate it much! Im 18 and have no real-life friends under 30 who like this stuff. I love connecting with people over music so its frustrating sometimes when I want to talk, although not necessary.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
thanks guys.

I bought Schuberts 9th, its childs play next to beethovens 9th. However, after hearing beethovens 9th hundreds of times (in fact, I memorized the first movement in order to listen to it whenever I want, took me 9 hours to get all the dynamics, timing, ect. everything right) I forced myself to always have really low expectations when it comes to structure, unity, and daring in a symphony. That said I am grateful for the suggestion and very much enjoy this symphony. The opening call was very good, in fact I thought the 9th may have an equal. Ofcourse when taken as whole its nothing next to Beethoven. To clarify what I like MOST is this: I want the symphony to be unpredictable,to startle me and get my attention. Beethoven wasnt afraid to be innovative within a musical context (i like creativity which enhances the music, not just creativity for the sake of creativity ie having random whole tone and chromatic passages just because you can do it). I also need emotional impact. To me everything else is a means to THOSE ends.


About music being laughable, when you think about it the act of listening to music is very lame and illogical as to WHY it makes us ecstatic. My view is: who cares? Its all about enjoyment anyway!

You guys were throwing around a few other names, please tell me the exact symphonies and composers which correspond. I will buy as soon as possible.

I am new here, I am also new to classical. For the past 2 years I was obsessed with Metal (my name is from a Nevermore song). I liked metal because it was always interesting, creative, melodic, and agressive. Its very similar to classical if you listen to the right music. harmonically its nowhere close to classical, but otherwise it can come close to being as good.

I have only within the past 6 months gotten into classical. I am a musician and I have very demanding standards which get higher and higher everyday. The only piece of music I ever heard which I consider flawless is the first movement of B's 9th. So keep that in mind! I love this stuff and buy 3-4 albums a week, so keep suggesting, I appreciate it much! Im 18 and have no real-life friends under 30 who like this stuff. I love connecting with people over music so its frustrating sometimes when I want to talk, although not necessary.

Judging from what you say I think you are more likely to be interested in the 19th than the 18th century, i.e the Romantic repertoire and perhaps you could try Mahler's 2nd symphony or Bruckner's 5th for starters. I have known quite a number of people who were metal fans and deeply into Mahler, interesting!

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Beyond Within,

Interesting that your name is from a metal song. It seems oddly appropriate for a beethoven discussion. Lysander recently pointed out Beethoven's tendency to glorify the individual and look within himself.

The chasm between heavy metal and classical seems quite huge to me. Heavy metal musicians are capable of so much more sound. You can play a guitar in a stadium of people and make every last person's teeth rattle. You can't do that with a violin.

I'm glad that you are not intimidated by classical music and not afraid to have gut reactions to composers. However, I think you should take a little more time before rushing to judgement. Try listening to the Schubert as many times as you have listened to Beethoven's 9th. I can almost guarantee you would have a different opinion of it.

Have you checked out the rock stars of the 19th century--Liszt and Paganini? Maybe that would appeal to you. If it is symphonies you are looking for, how about Schumann's 4th? A lot of Schumann has this driving intensity.
Ooo! I just thought of something. Check out the Franck symphony in d minor. Same key. He had a scope that you might like. Listen to this symphony before you hear anyone bad mouth it.
Good luck.