Haydn at Mozart's death

[Chris]

Originally posted by yenl:
I think that this type of language is totally uncalled for. Thuy was wrong to start this, and yes he or she did start this, but this response is highly inappropriate. I think the administrator should remove it.

I let it go because it was not directed at a person. However, you are right; a little more charity with the wording of criticisms should be exercised in the future.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Mozart said, "I have learned from Haydn how to write quartets". When Haydn heard the six quartets, composed between 1782 and 1785, he said to Mozart's father, Leopold, "Before God and as an honest man I tell you that your son is the greatest composer known to me, either in person or by name."

Upon hearing the 'Hallelujah Chorus' from Handel's Messiah, Haydn is said to have "wept like a child" and exclaimed "He is the master of us all."



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[SR]

Yenl....

>but this response is highly inappropriate<<<

Are you a pro censor or just an amatuer ?
If you read more than one of my posts you would see I am usually quite polite. Sometimes in life though you just have to call a spade a spade. I think it's quite rude to come to a Beethoven site and say Beethoven never wrote anything close to Mozart. Perhaps you agree with that poster ?I also think the statement that one Fidelio is worth 10 Figaros is absurd. I let that one slide though as this is a Beethoven site.

Regards

Steve

[yenl]

""I think it's quite rude to come to a Beethoven site and say Beethoven never wrote anything close to Mozart. Perhaps you agree with that poster ?""

so if a person is rude, it gives you the right to resort to name-calling, in the worst possible way?
Ever since I started listening to classical music, I've found that I am a much calmer person. I advise you do the same..
Now you're accusing me of agreeing to the person! Since you asked, yes I do prefer Mozart to Beethoven. I do recognize Beethoven's greatness. The two of them have their own individual dinstinctive styles. When listening to the local classical music station, I can tell a Mozart piece 100 percent of the time, and I think I can point out a Beethoven piece 70 percent of the time, that is only probably because I do not know all his works, but I do recognize his style. Haydn too, I can pick him out anytime.
Over all, since you ask my friend, i do prefer Mozart, and love all of of his works.



[This message has been edited by yenl (edited June 07, 2003).]

[Chris]

<font color="Red">OK guys, let's drop it, please.</font>

[Rod]

Originally posted by SR:
I also think the statement that one Fidelio is worth 10 Figaros is absurd. I let that one slide though as this is a Beethoven site.

Regards

Steve

Considering that I rate Fidelio as one of the supreme compositions ever written, that Figaro be assessed to be only one tenth the value in comparison need not necessarily be seen as a harsh judgement by operatic standards. Especially considering many of the various other popular operas, for which I would supply a figure massively greater than 10.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[spaceray]

How many Fidelio's have you seen ? I've seen one, a Vancouver Opera production about twenty years ago and the recent PBS Met production on T.V.

[SR]

Originally posted by yenl:
""I think it's quite rude to come to a Beethoven site and say Beethoven never wrote anything close to Mozart. Perhaps you agree with that poster ?""

so if a person is rude, it gives you the right to resort to name-calling, in the worst possible way?
Ever since I started listening to classical music, I've found that I am a much calmer person. I advise you do the same..
Now you're accusing me of agreeing to the person! Since you asked, yes I do prefer Mozart to Beethoven. I do recognize Beethoven's greatness. The two of them have their own individual dinstinctive styles. When listening to the local classical music station, I can tell a Mozart piece 100 percent of the time, and I think I can point out a Beethoven piece 70 percent of the time, that is only probably because I do not know all his works, but I do recognize his style. Haydn too, I can pick him out anytime.
Over all, since you ask my friend, i do prefer Mozart, and love all of of his works.

[This message has been edited by yenl (edited June 07, 2003).]

I think you are quite sheltered to think what I said is "name calling in the worst possible way"

If you can determine a Mozart composition 100% of the time you are indeed unique. Are you in So Calif by chance ? I'd love to give you a test. So who wrote the Sinfonia Concertante for Winds K 297 ? Who wrote the Requiem ? Different movements of the Requiem
must sound odd to you. Can you spot which parts were written by Sussmayr alone vs. which parts were written by Sussmayr using a Mozart sketch vs. which movements were written by Mozart alone ? How about the sections where Mozart did vocals and bass line but Sussmayr filled in other instruments ? Enjoy your Mozart, He is also my favorite between the two men (at the moment anyway)

Regards

Steve


Dropping it now Chris, but I'm not being rude at all, I'm not sure what there is too drop.

[SR]

Originally posted by Rod:
Considering that I rate Fidelio as one of the supreme compositions ever written, that Figaro be assessed to be only one tenth the value in comparison need not necessarily be seen as a harsh judgement by operatic standards. Especially considering many of the various other popular operas, for which I would supply a figure massively greater than 10.

Rod...

I agree the Fidelio is a superb piece of music. It doesn't do much for me though as far as visual and plot, therefore making it somewhat unappealing as an opera. I guess its a personal thing though, kind of like you feeling the greatest composer of opera and masses has "no character in his vocals"
Theres no accounting for taste sometimes. Mine or yours. I think if you looked at the number of performances done worldwide each opera season of Fidelio vs any of the top 4 Mozart operas you'd find your opinion in the minority. Doesn't make you wrong, but I'll bet if you asked 100 attendees at an opera performance this question "What is the greatest opera ever written ?" you'd get 5-10 Figaro answers, Some Don Giovanni
several Puccini titles and Verdi titles with a few Wagner Ring titles and no more than 2 Fidelio's. It wouldn't surprise me if it didn't get a single mention. That doesn't make it a less than superb piece of music, and it doesn't make Beethoven less than a superb composer.

I have seen from you postings in the time I've been around this board a general dislike of Mozart, to which you are indeed entitled to your opinion. Just why would you even bother comparing works by Mozart to Beethoven since you don't care for Mozart anyway. How do you arrive at a number of 10:1 quality difference ?

Regards

Steve


Not being rude here Chris just having a discussion. This is a discussion group correct ?

[Andrea]

I thought that this topic was titled "Haydn at Mozart's death". Just wondering if a new thread should be started here like "Beethoven vs. Mozart - Let's Get Ready to Rumble".

[Peter]

Originally posted by Andrea:
I thought that this topic was titled "Haydn at Mozart's death". Just wondering if a new thread should be started here like "Beethoven vs. Mozart - Let's Get Ready to Rumble".

We've had Mozart v Beethoven before at some length and to no end! It is quite amazing that people get just as heated when discussing their favourite composers as religion! The post by Dawbonfield 'but is it not possible to revere one artist without disparaging another?' was the most enlightened thing on this thread!

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'Man know thyself'

[lysander]

May I just say that in my view, in general
Mozarts Opera's are the Jewels in the crown so far as Mozart's total output is concerned. We just don't know whether Beethoven wanted to persevere with this artistic form, but no question Fidelio is a great Opera, and I rather think that Beethoven was in awe of the near perfect musical and artistic symmetry of Mozart's operas, though of course, he would have been rather less in awe of the improbable story lines and themes. The fact is that it was Beethoven that took the symphonic form to unparalleled heights, way above the level attained by Mozart. Beethoven's total musical output perhaps has the edge over Mozart in terms of artistic coherence, dynamism and spiritual and moral elevation.
Both Mozart and Beethoven were geniuses in their own right. If they had got to know one another I am sure they would have had great things to share with one another.
Mozart may have got some iron in his soul and direction and guidance in his life from Beethoven, and Beethoven in his turn may have learned from Mozart how to integrate the operatic form and particulary the relationship between words and music therin.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 08, 2003).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by lysander:
[B]

We just don't know whether Beethoven wanted to persevere with this artistic form, but no question Fidelio is a great Opera,

B]

You could be right about Beethoven perhaps not wanting to pursue opera further. It seems Beethoven was never completely satisfied with the outcome of his efforts. I think he always desired to compose for the stage but he did say, "This business of the opera is the most tedious in the world."

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[yenl]

Originally posted by lysander:


The fact is that it was Beethoven that took the symphonic form to unparalleled heights, way above the level attained by Mozart. Beethoven's total musical output perhaps has the edge over Mozart in terms of artistic coherence, dynamism and spiritual and moral elevation.
relationship between words and music therin.

[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 08, 2003).]

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. It would help to state it as such, instead of just making a big, broad statement, as if it were a "fact". It is merely an "opinion", your opinion, and I respect it.

[lysander]

Originally posted by yenl:
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion. It would help to state it as such, instead of just making a big, broad statement, as if it were a "fact". It is merely an "opinion", your opinion, and I respect it.

Each to his own! It is far from my intention of putting down such a genuis as Mozart, but I believe the musical facts are plain.
Beethoven did take the symphony to new heights, indeed he took it to such Olympean hieghts that no one thereafter has been able really to scale the foothills of what Beethoven achieved. Indeed the symphonic masters that followed Beethoven, such as - Brahms, Bruchner, etc. though brilliant in their own way, never remotely got anywhere near the apogee of Beethoven's latest symphonies, and could be said, I think, that all symphonic writers has been in retreat since Beethoven's 9th symphony.
I also like Sibelius's Symphonies and I believe they are informed by a spirit similar to Beethoven, but in no way comparable.
Mozart's Operas are surely the finest Opera's of their kind in all of western music. His achievements in this area are greater than Beethoven's.
For whatever the reason, Beethoven only wrote one Opera and is a brilliant work, but over all Mozart's achievements in this area are greater.
I think it is great that you love Mozart and that listening to his music has a calming effect on you, and it is a great tragedy that he died so young.

It is not the purpose of this forum to compare the greats, but to analyse them, thus to further understand and appreciate them. Everyone has valuable insights to give to others, whether fact or opinion, and it is neccessarily a sharing and learning process . It is nice to have the views of a Mozartian like yourself, but this is first and foremost a Beethoven site, so obviously members overriding elective affinity is with the man from Bonn.

Regards,
Lysander.




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 10, 2003).]