Old vs. New Concert Halls

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Thanks for identifying the quote. I never would have guessed Peter Warlock. I have come across him a few times before. I knew about the dual identity, but never heard about the occult business. Very intriguing.
It is a beautiful quotation and I half agree with it. Yes, some music does seem transcend all historical restrictions and speak to us directly, but doesn't our awareness of the historical context influence how we listen to music?
And here is a more inflammatory question: Is it wise bury ourselves so deeply in the music of Beethoven who helped define the early nineteenth century and possibly ignore those who are defining our own struggling century?
Yes, there is more rap and hip-hop in music stores than Beethoven and Max Reger. Should we find that surprising? Why should we expect sonata form to be as meaningful for the average person as a two-minute piece about crime, sex and drug abuse with the ubiquitous electronic sounds that accompany it?
I had a professor once who shamed us because we didn't rush out to see the latest Phillip Glass premiere. She compared it to having the opportunity to see the first performance of Monteverdi's Orfeo and turning it down.
Do we have a responsibility to acknowledge the music that reflects our time? Can we afford to dismiss it in favor of music written for a handful of counts and dukes?
(I am deeply into the role of devil's advocate right now and enjoying it).

Well Beethoven was most certainly not writing solely for a handful of Dukes and Counts! The quote on this site deals with the very point that Beethoven's music is as relevant today as when it was written - how is the spiritual message that permeates Beethoven and the work of all Great Composers less meaningful now than when it was written? This is the point of the quote - Greatness isn't a transient quality, it is a permanent truth. Is Pythagorus's theorem any less relevant today because it was formulated 2500 years ago?

I don't understand your point about the historical context influencing the way we listen - when I first heard a Haydn symphony I was a child, I had no concept of when the work was written, knowledge of the composer or what a symphony was, but I was moved by the music and sensed something great. The quote also deals with this by pointing out that things such as sonata form and dates are only of significance to a music student.

I don't dismiss anything in favour of anything else - I simply listen to what to me is of value whenever it was written, be it Gesualdo or Bartok. It is the quality of any work of art that should be the determining factor, not its date of origin.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

This was brilliantly put Peter I whole heartedly agree.I'm often learning new music trying to take an open minded to approach to it,sometimes it clicks sometimes it doesn't and it makes no matter whether it is Handel or Jean Coulthard.

[urtextmeister]

I really enjoyed the last few responses. Maybe you are right, Lysander. When all we see around is is ugliness, why shouldn't we have the right to seek out what is beautiful and true? I found your metaphor of the sewer a little ironic--if you were living in Beethoven's time, you probably would have a sewer running almost through your living room. Aside from that, I do agree with you. It would be a shame if we had to experience nothing but "trashy" pop culture and had no access to treasures of the past.
Peter, I have to cling a little to this thing about historical awareness. I, too, loved Beethoven as a child, but I appreciate his sonatas more as I learn about Mozart and Haydn sonatas and see the differences; the way I listen and appreciate has been changed by the "authentic" performances I have heard--how different my view of Beethoven's music would be if I had only heard the Berlin Philharmonic and Arthur Rubinstein! These are great performers, but listening to fortepiano has made me more aware of the way Beethoven stretched the bounds of the instrument.
You say you listen and determine what is of value, but how do you determine what is of value? Is your decision strictly gut response or is it influenced by your education, your intellect, your social status? A quote by Shostakovitch has always stuck with me. "Maybe there is no good and bad music," he said. "Maybe just music that excites us and music that leaves us cold."
I know we have gone far afield from the original topic, but I am fascinated by this subject and find your responses very stimulating.

[Sorrano]

Historical context does help us better understand the music, both as listeners and as performers. Hence the necessity for historicity in music. However, Peter is very right in stating that it is not necessary for this context in order to appreciate and enjoy the music. The context only amplifies our enjoyment. Rod's enjoyment, for example, is maximized because he listens to the music in a more historical setting, with period instruments.

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Peter, I have to cling a little to this thing about historical awareness. I, too, loved Beethoven as a child, but I appreciate his sonatas more as I learn about Mozart and Haydn sonatas and see the differences; the way I listen and appreciate has been changed by the "authentic" performances I have heard--how different my view of Beethoven's music would be if I had only heard the Berlin Philharmonic and Arthur Rubinstein! These are great performers, but listening to fortepiano has made me more aware of the way Beethoven stretched the bounds of the instrument.
You say you listen and determine what is of value, but how do you determine what is of value? Is your decision strictly gut response or is it influenced by your education, your intellect, your social status? A quote by Shostakovitch has always stuck with me. "Maybe there is no good and bad music," he said. "Maybe just music that excites us and music that leaves us cold."
I know we have gone far afield from the original topic, but I am fascinated by this subject and find your responses very stimulating.

I agree with Sorrano - being aware of the historical context is not essential but it is an advantage. Obviously you're only going to bother finding out about the the context if you're interested in the music. I think my tastes are influenced by a combination of the factors you mentioned, but I think it is imporatnt to listen to as much music from different eras and never to judge a piece solely on first hearing.



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'Man know thyself'

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Peter:
I agree with Sorrano - being aware of the historical context is not essential but it is an advantage. Obviously you're only going to bother finding out about the the context if you're interested in the music. I think my tastes are influenced by a combination of the factors you mentioned, but I think it is imporatnt to listen to as much music from different eras and never to judge a piece solely on first hearing.

Often when we first listen to a piece of music we are influenced by pre-expectations that prejudice our enjoyment of the work. Such was my problem when I first heard the 5th Piano Concerto, and I was disappointed (imagine that!) with it. But upon more exposure to it this piece has grown on me and has become one of my very favorite works.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:


- when I first heard a Haydn symphony I was a child, I had no concept of when the work was written, knowledge of the composer or what a symphony was, but I was moved by the music and sensed something great. The quote also deals with this by pointing out that things such as sonata form and dates are only of significance to a music student.

I agree with the quote also. Like you, the exact situation happened with me when I was a child only it was with Beethoven, and, like you, I had no idea who the musician was
all I knew was the music moved me in such a way that I wanted more! So even when we're very young we still can be interested in certain music, art, etc. even if we don't exactly know the reason why or why we're moved in such a manner just simply because we like it.

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'Truth and beauty joined'