Old vs. New Concert Halls

[Chaszz]

The NY Philharmonic's planned return to Carnegie Hall is only one of a number of occurrences over the last few decades in which older halls have won out over newer ones. Many lament the destruction of the old Metropolitan Opera House in NYC and believe that the Met company would return there if it still stood. This points to a surprising fall-off in the art or science of acoustic engineering. Why has this happened?

[Peter]

Perhaps it is representative of a general lack of interest in classical music which is insideoulsy being encouraged by the media.

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

I can't help but make this comparison: why would Joshua Bell prefer a musty old Stradivarius to a nice new violin? Don't we possess more sophisticated violin technology than did the old master builders?
Part of it is the age of the wood and other factors of time, but there is also a mysterious, intangible...magic about these old instruments that no one can adequately describe. Maybe the same holds true for old buildings...
Maybe the designing a concert hall is kind of like giving a weather report--guesswork masquerading as science.

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Perhaps it is representative of a general lack of interest in classical music which is insideoulsy being encouraged by the media.

I agree there is a general lack of interest but what do you mean about the media being a part of it? Do you mean the media encourages more modern music to the general public, if so, then I agree. But then again the media can't really push the older stuff on a new generation. I wonder if the newer generation would like classical more if the advertisement was better. Probably not.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[spaceray]

BMW is using Handel's Lascia ch'io pianga from Rinaldo to sell sports cars in Canada!

[Peter]

Originally posted by Joy:
I agree there is a general lack of interest but what do you mean about the media being a part of it? Do you mean the media encourages more modern music to the general public, if so, then I agree. But then again the media can't really push the older stuff on a new generation. I wonder if the newer generation would like classical more if the advertisement was better. Probably not.

Well just take tv - I don't know about American channels but in the UK any classical music is a rarity, usually scheduled for midnight viewing! All the chat shows regularly interview pop celebrities or discuss them, but again young classical talent is completely ignored. This reflects the whole 'cultural' trend - observe the shrinking classical sections in any cd store (always placed in an obscure corner at the back)!

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well just take tv - I don't know about American channels but in the UK any classical music is a rarity, usually scheduled for midnight viewing! All the chat shows regularly interview pop celebrities or discuss them, but again young classical talent is completely ignored. This reflects the whole 'cultural' trend - observe the shrinking classical sections in any cd store (always placed in an obscure corner at the back)!

It's too bad about your limited classical TV programming. Here in the states there is quite a bit of classical programming thanks to PBS. Every week here in Phoenix there's usually a concert or an opera being shown on PBS featuring classical music. I agree with the talk shows, nothing much on those anyway, only talk of the new movies out or upcoming celebrities. I also agree with you about the music shops which is a very sad commentary indeed. If there is any classical
section at all it's usually stuck in the back somewhere here as well. The newspaper has a good classical music section and the concert halls are full which is good news.

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Andrea]

I'm so glad that I live in Vienna. There is never a shortage of classical music venues here. Everyday there is a classical music concert being performed somewhere in this wonderful city, whether it be Mozart's Requiem in St. Stephan's Cathedral, Strauss waltzes in our Stadtpark, or Fidelio at our Wiener Staatsoper. On Father's Day there will be a performance of Beethoven's Sym.#1 and his Namensfeier Overture (plus something from another composer) at our St. Michael's church here in Heiligenstadt. This is the church that Beethoven could see from his flat (where he composed his Sym.#2) but he could not hear it's steeple bells.

Vienna was, and still is, the classical music capital of the world. There is no lack of interest for classical music here. I love Vienna and I am so proud to call it my home.

[lysander]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well just take tv - I don't know about American channels but in the UK any classical music is a rarity, usually scheduled for midnight viewing! All the chat shows regularly interview pop celebrities or discuss them, but again young classical talent is completely ignored. This reflects the whole 'cultural' trend - observe the shrinking classical sections in any cd store (always placed in an obscure corner at the back)!

Peter, you have voiced my exact sentiments.
The odd thing is I think, that never has there been a greater proliferation of classical CD's and good quality ones too, and yet the cultural profile of classical music in the west seems to be restricted to confirmed aficionados like ourselves.
Millions of people still seem addicted to trash TV and worthless soaps, steadfastly refusing to look at a wider and more wonderful world outside their own distorted purview.
There are in London some terrific classical music shops like Tower Records, ENO, and The Royal Festival Hall. Opera has never been more buoyant in the UK, what with the fabulous Glyndebourne, Covent Garden, Welsh National Opera.
The slight difficulty I see here is not the quality which is of the highest order, but the fact that it seems to me to be very much preaching to the converted who are consuming the product, as it were, in ever greater quantities, but I wonder whether it is really reaching out to a new audience in young people and adults who are chained to junk culture and TV. I think the solution is better education and forums such as this in order to educate the dulled senses of the masses that there really is something better for them and which will make a great difference in their lives if they just have the courage to try.
Like Jim Rohn says, never mistake the power of influence. For sure, if people are being influenced all day by materials from the sewers this is going to have an effect on their lives, and they have got to be smarter than that!.
The positive side is that life enhancing influences such as Beethoven, do have explosive effects for the good on the individual who chooses life as opposed to a culture of death which seems to be what modern culture is predicated on. The point is that Ludwig has something urgently to communicate to the whole of mankind in his usual endearing impatient way, and he would be I am sure, horrified not at the material poverty of the present world, which goodness knows is bad enough, but in a sense far worse, spiritual poverty and degradation of the times we are now living in.
When I use a Taxi sometimes, I have been pleasantly surprised at the number of drivers playing classical music.
Of course Beethoven now belongs to the world like Shakespeare. My husband and I like to go Stratford-upon-Avon to visit the places of Shakespeare's birth. But Shakespeare no longer now in an important sense belongs to Stratford, he belongs to the world like Beethoven no longer belongs to Bonn or Vienna, he belongs to the world.
I should think at any one time on the planet there are hundred of great concerts of Beethoven's music being played in dozens of countries like Shakespeare's plays.
London is obviously, like NY and Chicago a world city and on any one day there are a number of classical concerts. As I mentioned just recently, my husband and I attended a wonderful world class Beethoven festival in London. After all Beethoven wrote the 9th for the Philharmonic Society and we were privileged to hear the successor orchestra play 9th for whom he wrote, and what an electrifying performance that was!.

I am a member of the friends of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, which enables me to listen to rehearsals and meet the players.
I am also a life member of Shakespeare's Birthplace Trust.

There is a Beethoven Piano Festival going on the the moment in London Piccadilly, St. James's Church.

Like Jim Rohn says, "there is not enough time to listen to and read the brilliant stuff, without giving elbow room for the trash, and anyway, I don't want the reputation"!


Emerson said that, "we can learn great things if we will only lowly listen. Oddly enough that is why we have been given two ears and one mouth, because our listening should be twice and much as our speaking".

Carlyle said that, " Hero's like Beethoven live on the mountain tops where there is only silence, faith and endurance of great ones".

Sorry, I didn't mean this to be so long.
Lysander.



[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 07, 2003).]

[urtextmeister]

There is an assumption being made that I find a little troubling:
Music written two hundred years ago can and should be more revelant and meaningful to everyone than that which is being written and performed right now.
It is ironic that Beethoven's greatness lies in his relation to the time in which he was living. His music is great, partly, because of his awareness of contemporary styles, structures, norms, whether or not he liked them.

What we say is, throw out contemporary culture. Let's live in the nineteenth century (musically at least. We'll keep modern plumbing).

[Peter]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
There is an assumption being made that I find a little troubling:
Music written two hundred years ago can and should be more revelant and meaningful to everyone than that which is being written and performed right now.
It is ironic that Beethoven's greatness lies in his relation to the time in which he was living. His music is great, partly, because of his awareness of contemporary styles, structures, norms, whether or not he liked them.

What we say is, throw out contemporary culture. Let's live in the nineteenth century (musically at least. We'll keep modern plumbing).

I don't agree - the opposite assumption is made by most people, i.e that music that isn't contemporary is dead. Both views are wrong and are summed up in the Peter Warlock quote which is on the homepage of this site :

". . . Music is neither old nor modern: it is either good or bad music, and the date at which it was written has no significance whatever. Dates and periods are of interest only to the student of musical history. . . . All old music was modern once, and much more of the music of yesterday already sounds more old-fashioned than works which were written three centuries ago. All good music, whatever its date, is ageless -- as alive and significant today as it was when it was written . ."

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

I wondered where that quote had come from ,I adore the songs of Peter Warlock and my best one to sing is The Birds.He was a curious man in music wasn't he ?had a second personality or altar ego ,but I forget what the name was?

[Peter]

Originally posted by spaceray:
I wondered where that quote had come from ,I adore the songs of Peter Warlock and my best one to sing is The Birds.He was a curious man in music wasn't he ?had a second personality or altar ego ,but I forget what the name was?

His real name was Philip Heseltine. He used the name Warlock as it means a male witch - he became dangerously involved in the occult and his life ended tragically in a gas-filled Chelsea flat in 1930.

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'Man know thyself'

[urtextmeister]

Thanks for identifying the quote. I never would have guessed Peter Warlock. I have come across him a few times before. I knew about the dual identity, but never heard about the occult business. Very intriguing.
It is a beautiful quotation and I half agree with it. Yes, some music does seem transcend all historical restrictions and speak to us directly, but doesn't our awareness of the historical context influence how we listen to music?
And here is a more inflammatory question: Is it wise bury ourselves so deeply in the music of Beethoven who helped define the early nineteenth century and possibly ignore those who are defining our own struggling century?
Yes, there is more rap and hip-hop in music stores than Beethoven and Max Reger. Should we find that surprising? Why should we expect sonata form to be as meaningful for the average person as a two-minute piece about crime, sex and drug abuse with the ubiquitous electronic sounds that accompany it?
I had a professor once who shamed us because we didn't rush out to see the latest Phillip Glass premiere. She compared it to having the opportunity to see the first performance of Monteverdi's Orfeo and turning it down.
Do we have a responsibility to acknowledge the music that reflects our time? Can we afford to dismiss it in favor of music written for a handful of counts and dukes?
(I am deeply into the role of devil's advocate right now and enjoying it).

[lysander]

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
Thanks for identifying the quote. I never would have guessed Peter Warlock. I have come across him a few times before. I knew about the dual identity, but never heard about the occult business. Very intriguing.
It is a beautiful quotation and I half agree with it. Yes, some music does seem transcend all historical restrictions and speak to us directly, but doesn't our awareness of the historical context influence how we listen to music?
And here is a more inflammatory question: Is it wise bury ourselves so deeply in the music of Beethoven who helped define the early nineteenth century and possibly ignore those who are defining our own struggling century?
Yes, there is more rap and hip-hop in music stores than Beethoven and Max Reger. Should we find that surprising? Why should we expect sonata form to be as meaningful for the average person as a two-minute piece about crime, sex and drug abuse with the ubiquitous electronic sounds that accompany it?
I had a professor once who shamed us because we didn't rush out to see the latest Phillip Glass premiere. She compared it to having the opportunity to see the first performance of Monteverdi's Orfeo and turning it down.
Do we have a responsibility to acknowledge the music that reflects our time? Can we afford to dismiss it in favor of music written for a handful of counts and dukes?
(I am deeply into the role of devil's advocate right now and enjoying it).

It is unclear to me why anyone would want to pollute their mind with the trash pop culture. I don't need to have the sewer running through my living room to know that the sewer exists. You can say that these are not inspiring times in which we live, and therefore, comtemporary music reflects this and likewise uninspiring. The point is that Beethoven in Vienna did not have to go too far to see the very darkest side of life in the brothels, and sordid taverns, but his music transcends and transforms the dark penumbra of his time and place.
The worst thing one can say about contemporary culture is that it just gives in without a fight to everything that is bad and negative in the world. this may well be as the English rock band the Stranglers once said; " because there are no more hero's anymore" but do we have to be so utterly acknowledging of the fact.
Whatever the form of the music is irrelevant in a sense, provided it can instruct and elevate the human spirit and not degrade it. That is why we all love Beethoven because he is for all time. Sadly, it is the poverty of our spirit and aspirations that condemns us to this treadmill of awful pop culture that simply reflects back to us our own distorted image of ourselves.

Nietzsche said; "Man must always be surpassing himself, otherwise he will become lower that the beasts".




[This message has been edited by lysander (edited June 08, 2003).]